Marciano on Alis refusal to go to war. Full Letter.

Oh and if america is against dictators and communisme and facisme how come they almost only interfere if there is oil or other economic interests ??
You go to irak and middle east why not in ruanda a few years back ?? Millions where killed overthere ?? Maybe no economic intrests ??
You are a very george bush like person in you're believes.

 

by the way you bring up WWII every time.
what you want a feather up you're ass ?? man get over it. it is a fact that most people in the front line where poor white kids and black kids and other minoritys, rich kids and sons of senators and doctors and lawyers they didn't fight in the frontline they had the good jobs in wwII and korea and in vietnam. fact.
please cut the bull**** like fighting for freedom and for you're country bla bla bla. i told you before only one country ever attacked usa that was japan.. every other conflict you where the agressors even against nazi germany the usa made the first agressive manouvre. fact.

 

:good It's amazing that Robert Mugabe's regime gets ignored while the middle east gets internationally policed.

 

:good Too damn right he was.

 

JR SOPRANO,You are one sick,and ungrateful puppy.If not for the sacrifices of many of my compatriots, you wouldn't even be alive spouting your garbage on the internet. Even your country the Netherlands,wouldn't be in existence today,were it not for the USA coming to the aid of Europe,along with the Brits
and Winston Churchill. I'm truly sorry if we along with the Allies,defeated your hero,the MONSTER Hitler.I'll say this again you ungrateful wretch,
America lost 600,000 young men in World War 2,coming to the aid of
people like you. This is a boxing forum JR, but when I'm attacked for no reason by the likes of you, I fight back. Read history before you spout nonsense.It will do you good.You,didn't deserve our sacrifices at all.atsch

 

Never posted on here before as i was always happy to read and learn about boxing but you sir are an idiot. American right wing patriot's are all the same ie 'we saved your ass in WW2' when the fact is that many of the major battles that turned the tide of the war were already fought and won by the allies before america even bothered turning up. Hitler was pretty much beat once his troops stepped foot on soviet soil whilst fighting the rest of the allies. Don't forget the battle of britain either since if those very few RAF pilots hadn't stopped the nazi's britain was doomed and hitler would have gained important territory. America should also be held accountable for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Atomic bombing civilians in a country that was already beat = war crimes.
Back to the point, Vietnam was wrong, Iraq and Afghanistan are wrong. If America was just defending itself then that would be different but they aren't/weren't, they were invading other countries. America (as a nation, not individual americans) are viewed internationally as war criminals and pretty much the 4th Reich without even bringing up about terrorist funding. Ali was right and blind patriotic dinosaurs like you are wrong. :thumbsup

 

But "blind dinosaurs" like me and 600,000 others SAVED YOUR ASS.
"War criminals " we are ? Tell it to Churchill,you and your left-wing ilk deserve each other. A, you are intervening in a debate between Jr. and myself. I did not start this political discourse, but I and my generation of Allies,helped save misguided revisionists like you. You know not a damn thing about events leading up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki,friend. So don't show
your ignorance about the history of those difficult times. I trust a Harry Truman,Winston Churchill, Gen. Eisenhower,Anthony Eden,and intelligent
Allies of that time, a hell of a lot more than people like you, beneficiary's
of their correct and only choices...Stick to boxing A..Cheers...

 

Okay, Vietnam was bull****, but as the son of a WWII vet, I gotta side with Burt here.

Britain got their **** kicked in till we joined in on the Western Front, and without our supplies, our EXTREMELY generous prices on bullets and incendiaries, and our campaign in Northern Africa and Sicily which diverted forces from Operation Odessa, Russia would have been defeated as well. Their victory at Stalingrad can be credited as much to American industry and it can Russian toughness. I recommend reading alittle bit more Albert Weeks, children.

Furthermore, American forces represented a majority of the forces that invaded Normandy, including my father, thus liberating a huge chunk of Europe that didn't have to be under the Iron curtain for 50 freaking years. The atomic bomb was a wartime decision to save American lives. Japan was beaten but far from done. They were prepared to endure an American invasion, and a majority seemed ready to fight to the death. The Atomic bomb civilian death toll of 230,000(Rough estimate) would have been exceeded when General Arthur Mac wiped every damn city from the earth with carpet bombing tactics. The dropping of the atomic bombs started an instant coup within the Japanese military command that led to the emperors gang pressed surrender.

I got my PhD in history, people. Do some research before attacking an American patriot. If you wanna argue Vietnam and the Containment policy, fair game, but WWII is EASILY defensible by any historian worth his salt.

Now, lets get back to talking some boxing.

 

:goodI agree, to a certain extent.

 

We shouldn't try to justify the Vietnam War with the United States' efforts during World War II though. They were not comparable situations. Louis and probably Marciano too saw it from their point of view which was affected by America's success in the two World Wars and probably a fear of communism, but in the end the invasion was a mistake and a lost cause.

It's wrong to accuse a person of cowardice and a lack of patriotism (though Ali was certainly no patriot) for not taking part in what was a terrible mistake. In some situations it even takes more courage to say no than yes. In the end the US citizens said no to the war, but had they done so from the beginning, lives would not have been lost.

But I agree this is no place to get worked up about such things.

 

Im in utter agreement about Nam, friend. It was a reactionary action to threats both perceived and literal about the spread of communism in Southeast Asia.

Containment was a decent strategy that was carried out in very flawed ways. The Vietnam War was less popular that WWII because it was SO much more grey in its area. Nobody bombed us, and nobody was gonna bomb us if we didn't act. It was the military and president pursuing an aggressive policy in the undeclared cold war. Conscientious objection was possible, and in the end, it won out, and American involvement was ended.

Virtually nobody objected to WWII. America had been attacked, the world itself was under siege and people were ready to kick some ass. Possibly as much or more than any other war to that point in history, and its starting to look like any war ever for us in the States.

Atleast Ali didn't run to Canada, is all I'm saying. People talk about puppet, etc., but he, the man, Muhammad Ali, stood in front of that draft board and said no. That took some nuts. Debate the rest till the mans death and beyond, but in my opinion, this can't be disputed.

 

N, thanks for your input.Your post was true and to the point.I feel so isolated
defending America's role in World War 2. Things that are said on ESB,by today's revisionists are so devoid of facts that I can't sit idly by ,and not defend buddies of mine who died in that war. I hate politics, love boxing,
but when my country is wrongly attacked by some misguided posters who have an agenda,spouting their hatred of the U.S.,well I fight back.
Some new poster chastizes Truman and America for Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
I had friends who were in the Pacific Theatre those days before,telling us that to invade Japan and its surrounding Islands, it was estimated the U.S. would have 250,000-300,000 casualties.The Japanese would have had many more
dead than that in the ensuing invasion. Truman ,had to make his choice. And he made the right choice,reluctantly dropping the first bomb over Hiroshima
praying that the Japanese would see the light and surrender. They did not, thus the second bomb over Nagasaki. Hundreds of thousands of American
boys lives were spared [some friends too],and yes,hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers and civilians,were spared by the decision to use the bomb.
This is fact, not fiction.
Thanks again M, and now back to BOXING...:good

 

Nice thread

 

I dont think its right to knock any man willing to sacrifice his life for others, by fighting any war. Its not the soldiers fault....ever.



I also dont think its right to expect a man to kill or die for democracy when his country does not grant him those very same democratic rights

 

Rez, i agree with you about your post above.
But The Civil Rights act was enacted in 1964.
Ali refused induction in 1967.
By 1967 so much was accomplished by the USA that i wholeheartedly wished for, and was elated by the new LAW.
Ali,had OTHER motives in 1967,when he hooked up with The nation of Islam.
Of that I'm convinced.Cheers Rez...