Marciano..... the greatest cruiserweight.... if he was around today?

I put on 40 lbs of muscle and still have the same waiste, with me I slowed down my cardio. I look bigger but just as fit ....Marciano used no weights, just threw rocks (big ones) Evander and Mooreer and Foreman put on muscle with weights and so did Mike Tyson who was 200 lbs in the amatuers when he lost to Tillman...Marciano could absolutly do it and would only look more diesel...I dont think he would put on too much if it affected his 12 rd stamina but 12 is 3 rds less then 15....big difference, especially that the 2 greatest punchers of the last decade Tyson (only once Ribalta) and Lewis never stopped anyone after the 8th

by the way good post Spoon

 

I am merely looking for an analogous pressure fighter with a 67 inch reach prowling around the heavyweight division over the last 20 years. I am not one taken to the fantasy that Marciano was a once in a century talent and that there would be no analogous counterpart (or 6) every generation. 20 more pounds on his tiny little frame would nothing but slow him down and make him a huffing, puffing sitting duck. I think the position that he would be a competitive heavyweight today is fanciful, at best.

All this said, I still rank Marciano as one of the very greatest head-to-head sub 200 pounders ever, no small estimation.

 

Since there were no heavyweight champions, BEFORE or AFTER him, with a reach that short, I think fantasy is a poor choice of words in his case. In 124 years, since the first Queensberry Champion, there have been no heavyweight champions, other than Rocky, with a 67/68" reach, period. :good

 

While I think Marciano's extremely short reach ( 67"-68" is short for a bantam ) is a handicap in a post 1950's world it should be noted that he used his short arms to his best advantage on the inside.

Many here talk about height or weight in the heavyweight division, but there also seems to be minimum reach number of say 76" for all non swarming #1 guns in the modern history of heavyweight boxing.

 

260. His hunger during his comeback was enough to prove this.

 

Tis true. Let me rephrase, where is the analogous fighter in the past 20 years competing against heavyweights with his general size and style?

 

With the Cruiserweight Division around, you're not going to find a 185 pound heavyweight. Why would there be any? They are either...

1. bulked up to above the Heavyweight level, or

2. competing as Cruiserweights, or

3. losing weight and weighing in at 175 the day before they fight.

Do away with the Cruiserweight Division, and we will see some 185 pound Heavyweights again...in my opinion.

I think, if Rocky was young and around today, he would bulk up to Heavyweight and compete at that level.

 

Do you think a 185 lb fighter could compete with any of the top-10 heavies out there? Two fighters I would take out of the argument are Valuev who is a circus freak and in my opinion barely legitimate and Roy Jones who hand picked one opponent to fit his style and retreated to lower weights. I am looking for a 185lb fighter who compete consistently with top-tier heavies.

Regarding your second point above, I think Rocky "bulked up" is far less effective, less elusive, less explosive and merely another ****** Fortune.

why is the name ****** considered expletive?

 

Seamus has it nailed 100%

 

You're really being harsh on him I feel.

Roy Jones lost little of his speed and explosiveness when he went to heavyweight. Granted, he only weighed 193 there but Jones was a natural super middleweight. And Jones wasn't tall either, 5'11'' or so.

Another super middleweight in Chris Byrd also was still pretty quick at over 210 pounds.
Why on earth can't a guy walking around at 200 between fights back then not bulk up to 205 or so with modern training and nutrition and still be very effective?
It's nothing to bulk up 10,15 or 20 pounds today. Vinny Paz fought at lightweight and ended up a super middleweight. Manny Paquiao...look what he's doing.

To me, there is nothing to suggest Rocky couldn't fight effectively at 205. Sure, he cannot do anything about height and reach, but it's not like everyone in the division is really that big. Only the Klits combine great size and ability.

What you're doing - writing off Marciano - is nothing new. They wrote him off back then too, and look what happened.

It's not that I think Marciano is invincible, but the qualities he did have, and the ability to overcome the odds, would make him pretty competitive with a bit more size and strength.

 

Have you missed my posts on Marciano over the past years... well, I wouldn't blame you, but I rank The Rock as head-to-head one of, if not THE, top sub 200 fighter ever. How goddamned harsh is that, how is that writing him off?

I am just saying he would not compete well with today's superheavies, as would all other 185 pounders. And drawing an analogy between Jones and Byrd and Marciano is laughable. You could not find more stylistically different fighters. There are no 5-10, 185 pound brawlers who can compete with heavies today because they can not. There's lots of money still to be made in that division. I am sure we would see them if they existed, we would know. And the concept of him "bulking up" is equally laughable. I am sure he could have put on pounds. And I am sure those pounds would have inhibited his talents and stylistic advantages greatly. He would have flat out sucked at 205. Can you imagine him bending so severely at the waist- as he did at a ripped 187- with 20 lbs more of flesh? I just keep seeing images of Bobby Czyz, ****** Fortune and other hapless, stubby bowling balls.

 

Would a fitter and more importantly younger James Toney fit the bill?

I also really dont see how a 1984-1988 Evander Holyfield (the closest modern thing to Rocky) is not also as close to proof as you can get.

It is a fair point (to an extent) that size plays a massive role, and there is no doubt (in my mind) that some of todays big, slow superheavys are capable of doing the unthinkable and KOing some ATG's, just by the laws of averages. But, equally, it is totally unthinkable that someone like a Toney (who is the perfect example) who is competitive with most of the big guys (certainly top 10) would not be at the very least just as competitive with the same guys when he was younger and lighter. IN fact, i cant see how he would be anything but more competitive.

 

More importantly why is a certain Australian ex-fighter, now trainer, who faced Lennox Lewis for a few dull rounds in Dublin years back... why is his name unprintable...

****** Fortune. Just in Fortune.

hmmm...

 

Don't misunderstand me; I wasn't drawing a direct comparison between those fighters and Rocky...I was trying to point out that despite the added weight, they lost little (or little enough) of the qualities that enabled them to be the fighters they were.

I do agree (and have stated so in posts in this thread) that the best of the big guys, the Lewis', the Bowe's, The Klitschko's...would simply be too big and too strong for a Marciano, and this holds true even if you subscribe to the notion that Marciano could carry 200+ pounds well. No problem there.
On the other hand, I don't see all these superheavyweights you're referring to. The likes of Ibragimov, Chambers, Chagaev and others simply aren't big, huge guys. Marciano can compete with this lot, no problem.*

*this is, assuming of course that Marciano can carry an extra 20 lbs on his frame.

I know you're probably rolling your eyes and sighing in exasperation about now, but indulge me for a sec.

All modern boxers engage in weight training. The benefits thereof simply cannot be ignored any longer. Marciano didn't ever touch a weight in anger. Maybe he dabbled in it out of curiosity, but not seriously.

Training with weights would not make him slower or less flexible if done right. If anything, it would enhance these qualities. If you pack 20 lbs onto a specific part of your body, sure you'd feel it. But distribute that over your whole frame (more or less) and it's not much of a burden at all.

Training specifically for explosive movements would have added immeasurably to Rocky's ability to be well, explosive. Adding functional muscle to an athlete's frame is a highly developed science these days...it's not some hokey-pokey pastime where people just wing it and hope for the best anymore.

In most professional sports, whether it's basketball, NFL, rugby or baseball, track and field, athletes are getting bigger and stronger and are every bit as supple, flexible and fast as they were in the past, if not more so. Why should Marciano be any different if put on a modern training program?

The added weight would to a small degree detract from his legendary punch output, but on the modern battlefield where the fights are shorter and the boxers are not fighting at the same tempo as they used to (in general) I'm not sure that it would make much difference in the long run.

Lastly, I firmly believe Rocky actually overtrained in his heyday. He himself suggested as much when he was preparing for the Moore fight, where he sparred half the his usual number of rounds and had a shorter training camp overall. He said he never felt fitter or fresher than for the Moore fight.
As you know, an overtained fighter will leave some of his fight in the gym, and on a modern program that wouldn't happen, or at least it's less likely to.

On the subject of short swarmers not being around today, and not being particularly successful if they were, well I disagree.

Orlin Norris, although not a swarmer or anything like Rocky, was not blessed with much height, nor much of a punch. He carved out a respectable career for himself and decisioned the much taller Tony Tucker. If you gave him a big punch in either hand, how much further could he have gone?

Then there is Bert Cooper, himself a blown-up cruiserweight, who hung tough with the likes of Moorer and Holyfield, despite being a mess because of drugs. If he had committed himself to his craft as fanatically as Rocky did, how much further could he have gone?

 

Not at all. You have some very valid points.

I still say with Marciano, his bending, swarming style (that was murder on his back) could not support another twenty pounds. The stress of his style already forced him into retirement, and if you look at the Moore fight, he had certainly lost some of his flexibility. Furthermore, I don't see his tiny frame (narrow shoulders, short limbs) supporting a whole lot more weight to any increased effect. I think he was the best fighter he could be at 185-190. I also think any version of him would have a very short prime, given his style.

And yes, in a one-off fight, he may have a decent chance against the Chagaev's, Chambers and Lykiavich's (sp) of the world. However, put him in the division for a few years and he starts accumulating some ugly losses and thusly does not make it to a championship fight. I just don't think he is a viable heavyweight today, just as I don't think Roy Jones would have lasted another fight or two at the highest level.