Marciano v Bowe

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A lot of the so called super heavyweights weighed a lot lighter when it suited them proving that they all intended to build up somewhat. They certainty never trained to weigh at their lowest possible weight as an advantage. we never got to see SHW's fight at their lowest possible weight.

Marciano DID train and boil down to the lowest he could take it. He benefited from this,but we never got to see if the biggest natural super heavyweights could also benefit from that kind of monk like cardio intensive training programme.

Riddick Bowe was an already big guy who trained to get even bigger. I heard him talking about eating before bedtime in order to put weight on so he wasnt burning off so much whilst he trained. It explained the kitchen in his bedroom. "Holding onto my weight" is what he called it. As a tall long guy he could afford to sacrifice some speed because his long limbs always allowed Riddick to reach opponent's at range. Laying his weight on his man could save energy too whilst sapping the other fellow. It also helped that he learnt to fight attorney a more athletic build.

Against a slow slob with long arms and big heavy feet Marciano won't need to boil down so much for a guy who can't get out of his way and is an open target. maybe a bit of extra weight will make Rocky harder to push around, I can't think what else it will do. His strength was already colosal and so was his punching. WithHeavier guys their weight was their strength, they just fell in with it. Often to get a breather. Marciano was Strong anyway. He did not need a breather.

Would or could Marciano be slower with extra weight? Rockys speed was more about having the speed of thought to think a move or so ahead and pulling the trigger at the right time anyway. He had the instinct to know when to strike, landing was never a problem. He could exchange with anyone.

If it suits those who think Marciano needs to be heavier in order to be taken seriously then there is no reason Rocky could not have Fraziers weight or Fraziers workrate. Fraziers workrate would have been too hot for Bowe anyway. Buster Mathis was as big as Bowe.

 

He was never in and always lost fights in bunches. This does not contradict anything I just said except the bold part. As mentioned, he got the odd upset, including his fight just prior to Walcott.

 

The Matthews KO was described by the announcer as "Two Lighting Quick Left Hooks" and that's accurate, they were pretty damn fast, not far removed from Frazier's delivery to my eyes. It's interesting because Matthews was quicker the first round with Rocky looking a step behind, but in the second, he switches gears and Matthews can't get away.

Rocky certianly seemed capable of delivering particular punches with a surprising quickness. I know it seems to be radical to conclude Rocky was nothing but a slug, but I can't agree. The critics and writers of his time were unfairly harsh.

 

It's all right here. Rocky looks slow and ponderous working his way in on a guy who can not hurt him. His leads are fantastically wide and his footwork, tho determined, is hardly nimble and quick, and often leaves him off balance. In the the end he lands a nice double hook on a guy who likes to carry his right hand very, very low.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl6mzQrgzqQ

To pull off the "small power-punching" heavyweight mold, I just see the need to have faster hands and more agile body control, both from the feet and the waist. Still, even a Frazier ultimately runs into a Foreman and a Tyson a Douglas. It is a very hard alchemy to pull off and seems to have a very short shelf life.

And I just want to state that I am a fan of Marciano. Despite his shortcomings, I still rank him very, very high in a pound for pound sense. And on the other side of the coin, I have had to deal (or attempted to deal) directly with the Bowe camp in the early 90's... and walked away pretty disgusted with everyone involved. I have tried to temper that over the years and look more objectively on his abilities and career. However, I still think in the big picture that he was an under-acheiving slob.

 

Yep, same. It really doesn't matter how he does in some mythical matchup at the end of the day, because what's more important is what he did when it counted: in real life.

And I like Bowe too, for the short time he was a damned good heavyweight. It's sad to see what he's being reduced to these days.

 

It is all right there, especially the "Lighting quick" description of the finishing blows, which are obviously quick and explosive and can under no circumstances be described as slow without looking foolish. So in turn, you omit any description of the punch's speed and call them "nice" and even then you are apologetic about it with your immediate "very very low right hand" double speak that takes away any hint of credit. This is why these discussions go nowhere, only one side can give so much ground.

 

If any of us could call these matches for certain, we wouldn't be wasting our time on this site that's for sure.

I'm a huge adovcate of fighter's being rated in regards to how much they stand out from their actual peers.

 

Tubbs and Dokes, I saw Tyson take Tubbs out pretty quickly and I think Marciano would do the same, I never thought much of Tubbs....Dokes had movement and hand speed but Rocky would chase him out of the ring after some running...Charles was 33 but I see him handling Tubbs & Dokes pretty handily....Walcott as well ....Dokes was never the same after being ruined by Coetzee and Charles was never the same after Marciano but he was a live opponent going in and fresh off of 2 explosive KO's and an 8-2 record prior to that in which one was highly disputed and the other he chased a rematch and was avoided.....

 

I guess you are choosing to ignore slow, wide haymakers he throws and all the shots Matthews tags him with in the first round, the numerous times he misses by a country mile and gets off balance and wide open for counters. It's obvious Marciano doesn't feel that Matthews can hurt him. And my intuition tells me Bowe hit a bit harder than Matthews (well, a whole **** of a lot), and was maybe even bit quicker than Matthews. That is not a good recipe for Marciano.

And don't bother telling me what I think of Marciano. I'm pretty sure I've read all the books on him, watched all his remaining filmed fights dozens of times, and done a ton of newspaper research. You can look back on this very board and see where I argue him to be my pick against any fighter sub-200. There are no left-handed compliments being given. Matthews kept his right very low and Marciano saw it. Big deal. He did what he was supposed to and knocked out an overhyped light heavy. I would expect that of him but still give him credit.

 

There was nothing average about Marcianos skill or his speed. Both his skill and his speed were world class because they triumphed at world level. Both Rockys speed and skill were underrated and understated. Nothing complicated I accept, but subtle and extremely effective at the highest level all the same.

Marcianos movement often looked clumsy but was it really coincidental that he so often profited from his own clumsiness? Each awkward movement would evoke reaction from the opposition that would suply openings Rocky would skilfully and speedily exploit. The skill and speed was as crucial to his sucsess as anything else.

 

He beat many fast fighters to the punch, I guess that's where those short powerful arms come in handy...He KO'd Moore and Charles and that's where your Big Boy Valdes could not... short powerful arms can be a ***** ....a dime is always better than a nickel

 

-Did I not write that Marciano was a step behind Matthews in the first round? That's the big difference between me and you.

-I'm talking about two punches at the end of the fight and in return you keep ranting about how Marciano appeared in a different round that I already said he was slower in. You are going all over the place to avoid the sequence I pointed out. I have nothing more to say to you until you can acknowledge that those two specific punches can be described as "quick" Otherwise, this can go nowhere.