Marciano v Liston's Best Opponents?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Liston73, Jul 6, 2022.


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  1. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    I can agree here. Just change your pick to Williams (T)KO Marciano and we'll be on the same page. :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
    swagdelfadeel, Jul 8, 2022
    swagdelfadeel, Jul 8, 2022
    #61
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  2. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Johnson won 5-4-1 and backed off the rematch.
     
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #62
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  3. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I won't go that far, but I appreciate your allegiance to Williams ;)
     
    70sFan865, Jul 8, 2022
    70sFan865, Jul 8, 2022
    #63
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    That’s not true. Patterson was contracted to meet the winner of Machen and Foley by a certain date. There was no winner. So the date went to #3 Harris. Nothing wrong with that.

    Once Harris was out of the way Ingo had bingoed Machen. Making Ingo #1.

    Moore dominated the top ten and stood out as the outstanding contender. Beating Henry, Baker and Valdes. He won an eliminatior to challenge the champion.

    Machen had good wins but dropped the ball in eliminators each time.
     
    choklab, Jul 8, 2022
    choklab, Jul 8, 2022
    #64
  5. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Moore didnt dominate the top ten at all he only beat 4 rated heavies !
    Machen beat 9!
    Machen and Folley fought an eliminator in 58
    Machen was no5 in56
    Folley no9
    Machen was no1 in 57
    Folley was no2

    Machen7 in58
    Folley3

    Folley no1 in 59
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #65
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Moore was the most outstanding contender and only logical heavyweight contender.

    Machen, a good contender, was never the logical contender because he couldn’t win an eliminatior.
     
    choklab, Jul 8, 2022
    choklab, Jul 8, 2022
    #66
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Right. By then Sonny was no longer learning on the job and a ready made contender. Rocky reached the same point in a quicker time. He learned on the job yet still, compared to Sonny, Marciano was fast tracked.

    Right. This six year period starts after Sonny completed his pro apprenticeship which took him from 1953-1958.

    I agree Rocky was too raw for comparison during his apprenticeship, but by 1951 Rocky is where Sonny was at by 1959.



    maybe the best comparison is post 51 Rocky versus post 59 Sonny?
     
    choklab, Jul 8, 2022
    choklab, Jul 8, 2022
    #67
  8. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    I don't know where you're getting that from. There was never any agreement that Patterson was going to meet the winner.
     
    SolomonDeedes, Jul 8, 2022
    SolomonDeedes, Jul 8, 2022
    #68
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  9. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Moore was
    no 1 in 55
    no 1 in 56
    no8 in 58
    3 times ranked in the end of year top ten
    Machen was
    no5 in 56
    no1 in 57
    no4 in 59
    no 3 in 60
    no 2 in61
    6 times ranked in the end of year top ten
    no6 in 63
     
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #69
  10. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Patterson wasn' t contracted to meet the winner at all .
    D'Amato used the lack lustre draw between Machen and Folley as an excuse to avoid both of them!
    You are not the best person to decide what is true and what is untrue!

    Fighter of The Year 1951 Ray Robinson !
     
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #70
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  11. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    This is absolute BOLLOCKS !
    A cursory examination of their opponents when they had equal fights shows Liston was meeting a far higher class of opponent whilst Marciano was facing humpty dumpties !
    This is not even arguable, and is wilful ,and deliberate dishonesty on your part !
    You should be ashamed of yourself!
    NB You are not being fast tracked when;

    Your 31st opponent is 8-8-1 Career Resume 9-22-1
    Your 32nd opponent is 4 -14-3 Career Resume 14- 17-3
    Your 33rd opponent is 11`-15-1 Career Resume 18-29-2
    Your 34th opponent is 11-14-2 Career Resume 12-16-2

    Compare Liston
    31st Folley 51-3-2 CR 79-11-6
    32nd Machen 34-2-1 CR 50-11-3
    33rd King 40-21-8 CR 42-29-8
    34th Westphal 24-8-3 CR 42-14-6


    ps. For 19 months of his career leading up to his title shot Liston did not fight.
    Please, no more agenda driven BS ,it insults our intelligence!
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #71
  12. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He beat Maxim x4 Bivins x4 Valdez x2 Baker, Henry, Satterfield, Sheppard, Lavorante, Johnson x4 (who was the real best fighter around besides Archie and Marciano). Context is very much needed here. Had like 12 wins over hall of famers (I don’t care if Harold Johnson wasn’t rated he should have been and beat Machen). Moore was ultimately far more proven…and that’s saying something because Machen was no slouch himself. Heck of a fighter.
    Moore did clean out the divisions best (Valdez, Henry, Baker, Johnson were the top young up and comers) whereas Machen although did well fell short.
     
    Gazelle Punch, Jul 8, 2022
    Gazelle Punch, Jul 8, 2022
    #72
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  13. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think Moore was a bit better than Machen at HW. Not some kind of gigantic edge, but Archie was more dangerous and far more consistent.
     
    70sFan865, Jul 8, 2022
    70sFan865, Jul 8, 2022
    #73
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  14. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Maxim and Johnson were all inside the LHy limit hence they were NOT heavyweights, so thats 8 fights you can scratch! Both men were heavyweights when Machen fought them!
    Machen beat Valdes x2 the 2nd time by Ko something Moore couldn't manage . he also beat Baker. Both men beat Rischer . Johnson was a heavyweight when he beat Machen and he won by 1 round and would not accept a proposed rematch.
    Moore beat Henry excellent win. Machen never fought him, he retired in54 Machen beat DeJohn no6 twice by stoppage. Moore never fought him, just as Archie never fought
    Summerlin
    Hunter
    Folley
    Williams
    Miteff
    Harris
    All ranked
    So what's on Moore's record at HEAVYWEIGHT that Machen did not achieve?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #74
  15. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Quite probably, but there isn't a Gnats **** in it as far as their resumes are concerned imo!
     
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    Liston73, Jul 8, 2022
    #75
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