Marciano v Liston's Best Opponents?

Doesn’t get me mad. I just think Moore is a grade above. Not a knock on Machen whom I place as a top contender. I just view Moore as a top five contender ever. BTW when Archie last beat Johnson he already has wins over Satterfield, Nino, Slade, Charles, Henry, Brothers etc.
Maxim also had his best wins as well

 

Harold was 26 years old and had 52 pro fights when he fought Archie Moore for the title. He was smack in the middle of his prime. Johnson's weight did not fluctuate even when he went up to heavyweight. I don't see how you can use this as an excuse.

Harold was 32 years old and had 72 pro fights when he fought Machen. Doesn't seem more mature to me. Just older.

It should be noted Archie Moore beat Harold 4 times!


I just went through the NBA ratings to pick out heavyweights who fought Moore. There were 20 of them, and he beat several of them more than once. Here is the list. My only criteria is that they appeared in the NBA's heavyweight ratings, not if they were heavies when Moore fought them, or if he was.

Alberto Lovell, Buddy Walker, Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Curtis Sheppard, Phil Muscato, Rusty Payne, Bob Baker, Frank Buford, Clarence Henry, Bob Dunlap, Nino Valdes, Bob Satterfield, Charley Norkus, Jimmy Slade, James J. Parker, Willi Besmanoff, Tony Anthony, Alejandro Lavorante, Roger Rischer

Of these men. 11 were rated in Top 10 by RING when their fight with Archie Moore took place. Which means Archie beat 11 Ring ranked heavyweights, not 4 as stated above.

The following were ranked by RING at time of Moore fight

1946- Curtis Sheppard
1947- Curtis Sheppard
1948- Jimmy Bivins
1949- Jimmy Bivins
1952- Jimmy Slade
1952- Bob Dunlap
1952- Clarence Henry
1953- Nino Valdes
1954- Bob Baker
1955- Nino Valdes
1962- Alejandro Lavorante

 

Great research

 

why scratch those 8 fights? Harold Johnson's weight never fluctuated between light heavyweight and heavyweight. Harold beat Ezzard Charles weighing 177lb. Harold beat Nino Valdes weighing 176lb. Harold beat clarence henry weighing 178lb. Are you really using 1-3lb as an argument to make your point Moore beat a "smaller" version of Harold?

Harold was 32 years old when he out-boxed and beat Eddie Machen. Archie fought a 26 year old harold johnson and knocked him out.


AP Scorecard had Valdes winning the first fight vs Machen FYI

Also, if you're going to give credit to machen for knocking out Valdes (Something Moore couldn't do), perhaps you should give Archie Moore credit for knocking out bob baker, willie besmanoff, and roger rischer (Something machen couldn't do)

Archie never fought:

"Summerlin"- But Moore beat 2 men (Valdes, Satterfield) who beat Summerlin
"Hunter"- A guy whose career record was 18-10? who cares
"Folley"- Knocked out by Alejandro Lavorante. A 45 YEAR OLD Archie Moore knocked out Alejandro Lavorante out cold.
"Williams"- Machen didn't beat Williams. Don't know why you included him.
"Miteff" - A guy whose career record was 25-13? who cares
"Harris"- Machen never fought Harris

So what's on Moore's record at HEAVYWEIGHT that Machen did not achieve? He won a heavyweight title eliminator

 

Yes. Harold never appeared in RING heavyweight ratings in 50s because by rule, you couldn't be rated in more than one division. Harold wanted to appear in Light-Heavyweight Ratings because he was after Moore's title, more so than Marciano's. the RING made one exception in 1955 when they placed Archie (light heavyweight champion) as number 1 in RING heavyweight ratings after he won a title eliminator vs the RINGS most logical Nino Valdes. Archie put an enormous amount of pressure on newspapers, RING, IBC, and Marcianos camp to give him this ranking and force a fight with Marciano. Archie succeeded.

If Harold entered the Ring Magazine Heavyweight ratings in the 1950s, I suspect he would have been in top 1-5 for most of the decade. Thus, Archie beating Harold 4 times along with Valdes, Baker, Henry, Satterfield, etc is as impressive a run as any heavyweight contender.

RING February 1954

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Earl Walls
6. Don Cockell
7. Clarence Henry
8. Tommy Harrison
9. Bob Satterfield
10. Coley Wallace

Take note the previous year Harold had beaten the numbers 1, 2, and 7, 9 on this list.

 

Harold competed at heavyweight roughly around the same weight. Harold weighed 176lb vs Nino Valdes and 177lb vs Ezzard Charles. Are you really going to make a big deal out of 2-3lb? Were splitting hairs.

Bottom line:

Archie went 4-1 vs Harold Johnson. Harold was in his 20s when he fought Archie.
Machen went 0-1 vs Harold Johnson. Johnson was 32, nearing 33 when he fought Archie.

Seems you feel Machen deserves a "rematch" after all losses. LOL. The RING didn't think he deserved a rematch with Folley when he stunk out the joint in a title eliminator, his most important opportunity. Meanwhile, Archie fought ferociously in a 15 round slugfest to win his title eliminator.

 

Great work.

 

Don’t forget, aged 36, Walcott also knocked out 22 year old, 28-1 Harold Johnson who even then had already beaten Bivins, Godoy Henry hall and went the distance with Archie Moore.

 

Not sure your point. The AP Scorecard had Williams beating Machen. The AP scorecard also had Folley beating Machen. Also out of the Ringsiders scorecards for Folley-Machen I, 4-1 ratio in favor of Zora Folley.

The Folley I Fight was considered a disgrace.

One newspaper described "The Crowd boo lustily at the dull action all night but seemed to side with Swift (Folley's manager) who thought his Chandler, AZ fighter deserved the decision". "Lusty boos greeted the one card who voted for machen."

Machen got his "rematch" with Folley (you love bringing up Machen deserving rematches) and he lost.

"Heavyweight Zora Folley jabbed out a clear-cut victory over Eddie Machen in a lacklustre battle. Monday night's fight at the Cow Palace brought repeated boos from the crowd of 5,447 and frequent warnings from referee Vern Bybee to step up the action.

 

Top ranking heavyweights Eddie Machen and Zora Folley failed by far to determine a clear-cut title challenger last night in their 12 round draw. -associated press

never said he was. I said Mathews was Rings “number one all round fighter of 1951” because he was.

not fast tracked?

Marciano fought name fighters like Layne, Lastarza. Beshore, Reynolds,Shkor, Savold and Mathews and Ex champ Joe Louis over a period of 27 months.

 

Prior to fighting Archie Moore, Joey Maxim had defeated Future heavyweight champion Jersey Joe Walcott and RING top 10 rated Jimmy Bivins.

"Joey Maxim today joined the flock of heavyweight title aspirants waiting in the reception room to do business with Joe Louis. The Arena crowd of 11,164 didn't see anything spectacular, but the fancy boxing Maxim did turn in a workmanlike performance last night in outpointing Jimmy Bivins in a 10 rounder. Bivins, a top fighter during the war years, was in the midst of a comeback campaign that included an impressive performance against Louis in an exhibition a few weeks ago. But the Cleveland Negro was no puzzle to Maxim last night. Maxim kept his fellow-Clevelander off balance most of the fight with his sharp jabbing and hooking. Every time Bivins started a rally he found Maxim's left in his face. The fight's frequent clinches kept referee Jackie Davis busy throughout." -Associated Press

• Matchmaker Larry Atkins stated after the bout that he offered Jersey Joe Walcott $20,000 to fight Maxim on January 13th of '49, but nothing came of it.

Prior to fighting Archie Moore in 1954, Harold Johnson had defeated Former Heavyweight Champions Ezzard Charles, and RING top 10 rated Nino Valdes, Clarence Henry, Jimmy Slade, Bob Satterfield, and Jimmy Bivins. Not Proven at heavyweight?

 

I'm done arguing against Liston's competition because I think very highly of them, and Liston.

This poster Liston73 has a clear agenda against Rocky marciano and ill leave it at that