Marciano v Tokyo James Douglas?

Adjustments is everything here. Tyson always struggled with that, especially as his corners got worse. He had his programmed movements, toughness, and power. He had no answer for Douglas' feints and the right lead and uppercut he was mixing with the jab.

Marciano was actually great at disguising his movements, adjusting and feinting back at his opponent, in addition to having that toughness and power he could bank on.

 

-Choklab says something incorrect.

-I post an interview showing why.

-Choklab proceeds to doubt the information anyway to maintain his position.

Shocker.

 

This is just flat out wrong.

Douglas did not suffer from constant rescheduling, he did not suffer from tysons money advantage, and he wasnt afraid of him at all.

Many of tysons opponents, contrary to popular belief, were not quivering in fear before or during the fight. Tyson did not constantly reschedule or flex his money to his advantage. In fact, Tyson was something of a throw back in the sense he had a very busy schedule fighting multiple opponents back to back throughout the year.

Berbick was not afraid in the slightest, he brought the fight right to him and glared at him. He was the champion so we can scratch him off the list as far as opponents being bullied financially/scheduling. James tillis wasnt terrified and actually fought very impressively (arguably a draw if not for the knock down). Razor Ruddock went toe to toe and did not back off even after being badly hurt and chose to fight him 2x back to back. Tony tucker was again, a champion and i dont recall anything about Tyson flexing his A side powers or being intimidated. He did not fight like a terrified boxer and stuck to a good game plan.

This is all typical "tyson was only successful until someone who wasn't afraid of him stood up to him" rhetoric.

 

No Douglas did not suffer so far as I know from rescheduling or tricks from the Tyson team like booking him into a noisy hotel or losing his luggage. And I never said he did. But he was fighting Mike Tyson in a championship fight and Don King tried to get the win taken from him right after the fight.

many were not quivering in fear before or during the fight? Well Berbick, Bruno, Williams and Douglas certainly came to win. Spinks looked under confident. Smith adopted a very negative survival performance. Tucker boxed only well enough to stay out of trouble and the odds were too far stacked against Holmes, Tubbs and Thomas for it to matter even if they were scared or not. Holmes certainly wrote that he was scared in his book.

Many were less well prepared

The Bruno fight was rescheduled quite a lot.

some say Tyson was forced into the ring with-an STD going into that fight. He wanted to quit boxing but Jacobs forced him into it.

Others say Tucker must have been an all time great to do so well.


So what is the truth?

How about Tucker was in his prime, well prepared and young so he went the distance? Bonecrusher was well prepared, Fought recently, had fought good opponents in his last 4 fights so he went the distance. Douglas was even better prepared.

Is all this this a bit of a coincidence?

No Tyson was successful because he was a great fighter full stop. Factual evidence proving most of his title opponents were less prepared than he was does not mean he would necessarily lose those fights. When did anybody say that?

Tyson still was better than any of those guys on their best nights. I just think it stands up that it hurt Tyson that the lack of resistance some of them produced did not benefit him at all. Like he says some were knocked out before getting into the ring. He knew it played on their mind that they were not best prepared. Tubbs, Holmes, Spinks for starters.

No. nothing incorrect at all. Where do you get the audacity to decide what is correct? You can disagree and we can debate it but nothing is incorrect or false.

no you didn’t. I appreciated that interview because it confirmed quite a lot that is said about Tyson.

 

There was genuine concern over the knockdown counts and they lost their case so what is the point in even bringing this up?

The only one whose odds were stacked against them was Holmes, which was his own choice. Don king offered the fight and he refused due to his layoff and recent losses but don king showed him a briefcsse full of money and his mood changed quickly. None of this "trickery" occurred to make the fight i dont even think holmes was ranked he was drug out with money incentives to build hype for tyson and he was under no legal obligation or given an order by the sanctioning bodies.

Thomas was only 29 years old with only 1 loss (by decision). He was ranked #1 and #3 in 2 of the sanctioning bodies, a former champion and a hard puncher who KOd his last 3 opponents and had a powerful jab comparable to Liston. He was not intimidated or scared at all and was doing well, snapping tysons head with his aforementioned jab and could take a shot. I had him winning at least 2 rounds and it was a fairly competitive bout. Show me where he had the odds "stacked against him"...?

Tucker was always a more cautious technical boxer he didnt suddenly change his entire style because of Tyson. Again, prime young athletic champion, where were all the odds stacked against him?

Im quite certain you are already aware Tyson rescheduled due to suing cayton, breaking his hand in a street fight, and injuries from crashing his car, all of which had absolutely nothing to do with trying to flex their A side powers to frustrate Bruno or manipulating things to their advantage. So why sit here and pretend like that was the case? It took me 70 seconds to look this information.

Again, Ruddock and Thomas were prime, ranked, active contenders who were not afraid of tyson and both got stopped.

Tyson having some medical issues and mentally checking out wanting to quit boxing makes the Tucker win more impressive.

I already explained how several of tysons best opponents were in fact prepared and active. Your narrative that he was an A-side bully is pretty innacurate.

I find it hilarious you defend marciano sub par competion with the argument "he fought who was available and did what a champion is supposed to do" but you make no such exemptions for tysons opposition.

Already covered holmes above. Tubbs wasnt intimidated be was just lazy and decided to be immature and spite his management by being out of shape on purpose. Spinx was well prepared and the best opponent you could possibly come up with on paper (young, undefeated, champion of 2 weight classes). The spinx fight can be explained here:

This content is protected

Tyson said he didnt have sex for 5 years. You have no evidence that this information is incorrect other than speculation you are pulling from your ass. If anyone is being audacious it's you.

See above. I dont deal with disingenuous agenda driven arguments or speculation with no evidence.

 

Thomas had the odds stacked against him because he had not proved to be anywhere near the level he had been since he last beat a recognisable opponent some two years earlier. He was fighting obscure opponents since losing to Berbick. That’s not the correct opposition is it? Two years without beating a rated fighter?

Tyson was a serious step up for Tucker because Tucker had never beat a name fighter at the time he stepped into acring with Tyson. Douglas had not been an elite fighter when they were surprisingly paired up for the IBF title. Diuglas was an obscure fringe kind of contender who had lost to Jesse Ferguson and beat Page a while back but had not really set the world alight since.

Bruno was horribly disadvantaged because he had not fought at championship level for 3 years and since he was last in a ring Tyson had fought 3 times.

Ruddock was prime yes. Ruddock is not part of the period in this discussion which is about Tyson’s championship title opponents.

Thomas was not prime. How could he be? Thomas had fought on the undercard of Tyson’s last two fights but he was disadvantaged because Pinky had not won a fight against a rated fighter for two whole years. Pinklon was 3-1 Over a period where Tyson had 26 fights and beaten 3 world class opponents.

Tucker at that time was only a USBA Level opponent not strictly a world level since he had not defeated a world level or elite opponent. The obscure IBF selection of Douglas and Tucker for a vacant title was not worthy of World status.

Tyson had 4 fights, 3 world class opponents to Tuckers 2 fights in that time with one being barely world level.

Tyson cleaned out the house. I cannot understand why you have not observed my praise of him. Many times I have said Tyson was the best heavyweight in the world at that time. Tyson, Spinks and Holmes are the only heavyweights I recognise as champions of the 1980s.

the title of that interview says Tyson didn’t have sex but having watched it I don’t recall a reference to the period Tyson claims to such a prolonged abstinence. Was it really during his championship reign?

 

What is your weird obsession with fights with rated opponents only being relevant if they were recent prior to fighting Tyson? Its illogical. His impressive stoppage wins over weaver and tillis and winning a decision over Witherspoon are all good credentials as an opponent for Tyson even if they were a couple yesrs ago. He was RANKED NUMBER 1, what more do you want?

If you are ranked in the top 10 you do not take on as many killers as possible if you want another title shot. Hosea and Sutton are perfectly valid opponents after coming off a loss.

Tucker beat douglas for the ibf belt, theres your name opponent. Jaco was a huge 6'6 28 year old and had stopped Ruddock. Jimmy Young was a crafty cagey veteran and good experience for an up and coming fighter.

Thats not tysons fault. Again he injured his hand in a brawl, got in a car accident, and was dealing with legal issues. HOW WAS BRUNO GOING TO FIGHT "AT THE CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL" IF THE CHAMPION WAS UNAVAILABLE? This is a false criticism.

It still debunks the idea tyson only went after guys who were intimidated and bullied people with A side powers.

Thomas was in his 20's with only 1 loss and ranked #1. How is that not a prime fighter? Are you drunk?

Many of tysons 26 opponents in that time period were tomato cans with losing records (Kind of like a certain Italian HW champion) "Activity" is highly subjective without context you dishonest worm.

It was world title worthy because the IBF, a world title organization, said so. They were the #1 and #2 contenders. It doesnt matter what your opinion is.

Who was tucker supposed to fight to prepare him for Tyson, who had all the other belts and beat most of the contenders?

I dont give 2 owl pellets who you recognize as the champions of the 80's.

He mentions it here too. Lots of boxets abstained:

This content is protected

Are you gonna deny it again because it doesnt suit your agenda? He wasnt binging on hookers on his way to the title but he certainly had his fair share after winning it.

 

in reality The number one contender was Tyson because Spinks was the Champ. Number two was Bonecrusher because he beat Witherspoon, Then perhaps Berbick, then perhaps Witherspoon... Without beating a rated contender in over two years I don’t think Thomas should have maintained a ranking after a year.

it was a bogus claim.

Jaco was a guy with thin arms and a long neck who everyone knocked out. Ruddock pre rank did not count at that time because nobody knew he would later become a legitimate contender in the future.

In the time since Bruno beat Gerrie Coetzee and lost to Witherspoon a lot of other guys fought for a title and Frank had fought none of them. Tubbs, Thomas, Biggs, Smith, Cooney, Douglas, Tucker, Holmes, Spinks, Berbick and Williams.

ouch!

yeah this is why looking back it is impossible to recognise 1980s alphabet champions on decisions like this. As you say was it’s only worthy because the IBF, a world title organization, said so. Somebody can create a world organisation and they can do what they want because they say so and it doesn’t matter if it is worthy.

There is no way on earth Douglas and Tucker were considered the best two heavyweights in the world in 1987! Ring magazine regarded six other heavyweights better than Douglas at that time. Six!

Tucker did not make the Ring magazine rankings yet one organisation select Tucker as a suitable candidate for a vacant “world” title fight?

 

Tyson says he abstained from sex for five years but he then says he dosnt know why, then talks about being 12 years old. So when was this? From 12 to 17? What was he doing before 12 and to whom?

You say Tyson had his fair share when he was champion, well that fits in with him banging hookers and breaking out in STDs around the time he was champion and defending his title successfully dosnt it?

 

It.

Doesnt.

Matter.

What the **** YOU think the rankings should have been!

Thomas was #1 and #3 in 2 of the 3 main sanctioning bodies. Thats the end of the discussion. Thomas was a prime #1 contender.

#1 and #2 according to the IBF. You have nothing.

Nobody knew witherspoon would become a 2 time champ but they still considered it a good win for Holmes. At the time Jaco was an ok win for Tucker on paper. You're missing the point as usual.

Spinx retired after mike knocked him out. Berbick and williams were KOd by tyson in 1 and 2 rounds respectfully, how werr thry going to prepare Bruno for a tyson fight? Holmes was inactive/retired. Cooney was inactive and 6'6 with a shakey chin, how would he prepare bruno for mike? Your suggestions make no damn sense.

Cool story bro. Douglas and tucker were the #1 and #2 ranked fighters in the IBF and Tucker became the legitimate IBF champion. This is the last time im going back and forth with you on this. I do not give a **** if you disagree. You're the same guy who defended Don Cokkels ranking and regard a 37 year old flabby Louis as a "modern" heavyweight.

 

Again I'm not gonna nitpick and argue with you on this since you clearly made up your mind on this issue for your agenda.

 

like I said Frank has not fought championship competition since losing to Witherspoon in 1985. Spinks beat Larry in 1985 and was available to fight until 1988. Cooney was available, Thomas was available, Tubbs was available, Berbick was available, Williams was available, Tangstad was available, Douglas was available, Biggs was a available, Smith was available... all these guys contested for titles and were active and they were not fighting Frank Bruno. They were not fighting each other much either. My point is, isn’t it a disadvantage for anyone to contest for a title without first beating a championship level opponent?

 

None of those opponents were remotely similar to Tyson. None of them had belts becausr Tyson was undisputed. How does Bruno prepare for a "Championship level" fight if one champion has all the belts?

Aren't you shifting the goal posts? You bring up Thomas having not fought a "Championship level" opponent so he didnt deserve a #1 ranking and try to diminish Tysons win over a former champion, but you're saying an inactive glass jawed guy coming off a loss in Cooney would be a valid way for Bruno to earn his title shot against Tyson?