Marciano v Tokyo James Douglas?

Douglas wins easily. You couldn't give him a better match up. Marciano was a tiny sub cruiser who was a slow, plodding inaccurate puncher with comically short reach.

 

whilst Tyson would be a hard fight for any heavyweight in history, even on this performance he was dangerous, but there is no excusing the fact that Tyson ran out of ideas in this fight. I would not be so certain.

But Tyson shone against even worse men. He shone against Tubbs who had not beat rated opposition for years. He shone against Holmes who had not beat rated opposition for years. He shone against Thomas who had not beat rated opposition for years. He shone against Bruno who had not beat rated opposition for years. He shone against Biggs who had not beat a rated contender.
Did he shine against Smith or Tucker?

Tyson did shine against Trevor Berbick and WIlliams. I will give him that but let's not throw stones at Marciano whilst celebrating Tyson in a glass house.

Marcianos championship opponent's all earned the right to compete for the heavyweight crown from beating champions or rated contenders.

Tyson still had all of his faculties for that fight but he became less and less focused the harder the fight got. He was moving his head in the first round but against so much resistance he had too much to think about. The fights he had before this were easier than this and he was trying to adjust. Learn on the job. The More he got hit the more confused he got. His instinct was not to fire back but to stand off and think about how he got hit. He was getting schooled. He kept looking for a jab to counter his way in but he would react to feints and get hit.

This was because he was familiarizing with resistance. Going to party's had nothing to do with it. At this point he could not shine in the face of resistance at world level. He was brave though, he took a beating, he just was not used to thinking under fire at that time.

That's your opinion. I'm sure lots would agree with you. Tyson was indeed a force of nature when he got going and more than capable of taking anyone out. However, to be absolutely certain I would need to know Tyson at that stage of his development in Tokyo really could wipe a great fighter out (even a smaller one) on a night where he got so confused and frustrated.

 

That's right the last rated fighter Tubbs fought was two years previously and he lost that fight. The last fight he won against a rated fighter relevent to the world scene was beyond that. We are talking about a modern period here where most fighters with a winning record have a rating with one body or another. For Tubbs, no wins against a rated fighter for years before facing Tyson.

yes three years later, six years after being a relevent player on the world scene Tubbs messed Bowe around in a learning fight.

....And lost for the second time. Holmes last win was against Williams years earlier. Did Williams have a rating then? He might have, I can't remember, so it could even be as far back as the David Bey win when Holmes last had a relevent win against a rated fighter. This is going back to before Tyson had even turned pro.

****ell and Lastarza were #1 and #2 rated and at least beat rated fighters to gather their credentials. They were by no means strong contenders in the biggest scheme of things but they were legit contenders relevent to the period.

Holmes lost his last two fights and had been drinking beer and fishing for two years. Great fighter in his day, and a great veteran fighter later on when he was more active but he was quite literally dug up for Tyson. He was retired. He had no warm up fights or nothing. It was like Ali taking Larry on ..if Ali had lost his last two fights!

But as pitiful as that sounds at least Don earned that rating by beating the last rated fighter he fought. Tyson had already demolished Berbick in two rounds. Yet Thomas was defeated by the same Berbick in his last fight that had any relevance to the world scene. The champ takes on the guy who had not done anything since losing to one of his 2 round victims.

You have to go all the way back to the night Thomas beat Weaver to find an actual win pinklon had against a current rated heavyweight. Again, around the time Tyson was beginning his career.

 

No, Lastarza's credentials for a title shot, rested on him being the current #1 ranked contender.

By definition, there is no more worthy opponent than the #1 contender.

 

Except that he consistently picked off whoever was ranked #1, which is exactly what a champion is meant to do.

Not exactly fair to turn around and say “OK but the rankings were wrong, and he should have known it”.

What was Tubbs ranking when Tyson beat him out of curiosity?

 

I stopped about here. Too much ridiculousness. Do you believe any of this? Is it necessary for me to repeat easily available rankings and records to refute almost every point above?

I grow weary of these exercises in the obvious.

 

A one fight wonder does not beat an prime ATG, Buster goes down and out much like he did vs Evander but this time with a right hand that would remind you of the one that felled Rex Layne Marciano KO 6-8

 

Yes, because Rocky was so proven against 6-4, 230 pound elite technicians with 83 inch reaches. Meanwhile, guys Rocky's size weren't allowed to fight at heavyweight in Douglas' time.

 

There were a few big guys in that ERA most of them got beaten on there way to the top. Buster was a one fight wonder got KO'd by Evander in his next fight got hit stayed down and I dont think EH stands out as an elite puncher but a good puncher and he would not stand out as an elite puncher in any era

 

Yes, tell me how the division was loaded with elite, large sized, young fighters in Marciano's day.

And this is a head to head matchup wherein one fighter is assessed on a single performance, not subsequent performances, a guy who marshalled his immense physical assets into a career best performance.

 

You can prove that after losing their belts Tubbs, Thomas and Holmes beat rated contenders to earn their title shot at Tyson??

If you can find rankings for the unremarkable opponents Thomas and Tubbs beat after losing their titles go ahead and produce them.

I've always been interested to see how high Tubbs opponents Wimpy Halstead, Eddie Gonzalez and Mike Jameson were rated in 1987.

Tubbs beat Page in 1985. That's three years before he fought Tyson in 1988.

Same with Thomas. Let me know the rating of 6-4 Narcisco Maldonado, 12-4 William Hosea and 25-11 Danny Sutton in 1987. It was back in 1985 when Thomas beat Weaver too.

 

Interesting observations that passed me by so far.
It lead me to reading this:

I respond to the interesting observation about Tyson's opponents' recent fights before they got to him.
Regarding Thomas, Holmes, Tubbs I have to agree with you.
Regarding Biggs, he stopped David Bey that same year, beat Renaldo Snipes the year before and for what it worth, also won an 8 rds decision over James Tillis the year before, so he deserved a title shot.
I have to ask about the cause of the stoppage in Bey vs Berbick.
Regarding Douglas, he was far from a 1 hit wonder as can be seen in boxrec.
Douglas had a very good list of wins.
In addition to his length and girth, he was also quick of both hands and feet, which all add to a very impressive package and he also knew to fight.
Douglas' winning record surpasses Rocco's.
The rankings are carefully engineered by criminal and semicriminal factors anyway. Some wins are meaningless but they effect rankings strongly.

It does not take the Tokyo Douglas to stop Rocco, all Douglas needed was a will to win, or in other words the absence of under the table payments and contracts.

 

Exactly how long or short in advance does a challenger have to beat a contender to have meaning? Does Tubbs beating Page for the WBA title 35 months before his Tyson meeting not count? In an age of highly leveraged negotiations 35 months is too long to count? Who did Lastarza beat to get a shot at Marciano? Charles lost to light heavy Johnson and Valdes in two of his previous four fights but he got a shot. ****ell knocked around the hype job Matthews for his shot.

Tell me the heavyweight records of ****ell, Charles, Walcott and Moore after they fought Marciano. Do you really want to compare?

Pinklon Thomas was the #3 rated heavyweight at the end of 1986, behind Tyson and Tyson-victim Smith… two spots ahead of Tubbs.

I don't think I have to address more idiotic contentions. Please discuss with intelligence and reference to reality. This is trying my stay on this discussion forum.