Yeah, for a lot of reasons I think it is 50-50. Could be. Certainly Rocky should start as the underdog.
I'm annoyed becausecI have already addressed this. So did many other posters. Not gonna bother repeating myself.
I think that Choklab has put up a great argument but I don't think Marciano/Foreman is 50-50 at all. More like 70-30 to Foreman imho.
I haven't read it all way through, but a lot of time seems to have been devoted to how an old Louis did against Rocky and if that Louis was stronger than the peak version or not. Personally I don't think that discussion has much relevance for what would happen between George and Rocky, since peak Foreman wasn't very similar to Louis except for both being very hard punches, something old Louis not longer was (or at least he couldn't deliver whatever power he had left efficiently anymore). How Frazier did against Foreman seems more relevant, since Frazier and Marciano were more stylistically similar than Foreman and Louis imo and Frazier had more life left at 28 than Louis had at 37. So I see it more in terms of how much would better would Rocky do than that version of Frazier (which clearly was some way from the best version of him). I personally would give Rocky less than a 30-70 chance, but who knows.
LOL, so Frazier did not take Foreman serious in the first fight.......what happened in the second ? Did he take him more serious ? Yeah , he still got rolled like a pin ball. Foreman beats Marciano 10 out of 10......TAILORMADE for George....a small , slow, easy to hit brawler with no jab or no lateral movement coming straight at him.....Marciano's crouching is a dream come true for Formans looping uppercuts/hooks Replay of the Frazier fights and like George said about Frazier........you aint looking for him , he is coming right at you .......dream fights for Foreman. To beat Foreman you need major speed, size and plenty of defense.........Marciano aint got none of that. One has to really hate Marciano to let him in the Ring with Foreman, guaranteed massacre.
" I refereed two of foremans fights, I knew he was immensely strong and a very powerful puncher indeed. His problem was that he threw his punches in wide arcs, often telegraphing their arrival and leaving himself WIDE OPEN for counters. That could be fatal against a left hooker like frazier who could get inside those wide arcs and hammer home his big artillery. But there were troubling indications, such as fraziers inactivity. In the two years since he defeated Ali, Joe had defended his title only twice, both times against journymen opponents, who actually rocked him. Clearly, Frazier had not been showing the same firepower that had pulverized Jimmy Ellis and bob foster, and had sent Ali crashing to the canvas." - Arthur Mercante. This explains quite a bit about the version of Joe Frazier George Fought. It also describes some of the vulnerability to counters George was with his wild swinging ways.
That was not so much to do with the comparison between old Joe Louis and George Foreman. But more to do with A 213 pound opponent being backed up by Marciano getting in the way of the notion that Rocky is too silly of a match for Foreman. A notion that some hold so dear to their hearts that they get offended if it is challenged. The idea is write joe off. He must be written off. Louis has to be weaker at 213lb than he was lifting up Carnera at 196lb. This fight has to be a no contest for George at all costs.
Ok. So you do think 37-year old Louis is a valid comparison peak Foreman? Now that's clear. Ok. It's hard to know just how physically strong Louis was at that point, but I have never seen him employ the pushing tactics George used his whole career and it's very clear that he did not have the power at that point that peak Foreman had. His right looked more or less useless. There certainly is little reason to believe that he could pulverise someone like Frazier (even that version) with it. The 37-year old Louid looked a very different specimen to peak Foreman, so that comparison does very little to me. Unless there is footage that I am unaware of old Louis manhandling 215 lbs fighters like Frazier and Chuvalo and smashing them.
The absurdity of what passes for logic here is both amusing and headshaking. Carry on, free entertainment.
No. that’s not what I said. Joe Louis simply represents the 213 pounder that Rocky backed up, something that some don’t want to come to terms with. So much so that they will go against everything they usually say about size advantage and use this as the one example of a guy being less strong at a higher weight. not against omilio Agramante who Louis decked hard with a right hand punch months earlier. Joe didn’t get many rights off against Rocky, but it wasn’t because it was useless. That is because Louis was a completely different specimen to George Foreman! That was NEVER the comparison I made. The point I made was stance over strength. Louis was the example used because he was 29lb heavier than Rocky. Not because he boxed just like Foreman. The crab like, low, side on stance Rocky employed prevented him being pushed back by a 29 pound heavier opponent. This was to show the nincompoop element that every smaller man coming forward won’t necessarily be sent flying by anyone with bigger muscles. Who as it happened, the poops became so intimidated by this news they decided it only must of happened because Louis was so very feeble at 213 pounds and that it is logical he had in fact been so much stronger at 196 pounds years earlier..
Yes, but why bring up that argument with me? I wasn't involved in it. Don't try to drag me into it. I don't see what this remotely has to with my argument. I agree that not every fighter roughly Foreman's size would back Rocky up and have never argued it. I have argued that Foreman would push Rocky off to get best possible room for his punches if given that leeway by the ref.
I agree George would certainly try to push Rocky to get the best possible room for his punches, since he was very effective at this against Frazier (who was more square footed) and most upright standing guys. But for the reasons explained, it might not be so simple. Even with a 29lb advantage in size and incredible strength. George would certainly turn Rocky in a clinch. That’s for sure. He was good at that and no stance would really prevent this. I think the wide, telegraphed, sweeping blows from Foreman would allow Rocky to nail George with enough counters to keep him in the fight during the early rounds -so long as he isn’t hit more times than George is. Then, as George tires things can get interesting.
