Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PetethePrince, Sep 4, 2009.


  1. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes absolutely he could do so if he did so to an older version pending a few caveats. Their weights were the same... Johnson was his Reno weight and not smaller because we're using a 26 year old Jeffries. Second, assuming Jeffries, or whoever, stayed in shape and trained at 35 for a fight like he did at 26. Third, in isolation is what we're talking about here. Fatigue and stamina play a role in your strength. So at his older age, he's going to tire sooner, and thus not have the strength he did in the early rounds. However, we're not talking about trying to move Johnson while being tired old vs. the younger fresher version trying. We're talking in isolation here, and yes, Johnson would have just an easy a time moving either version just the same with the above being static. As I stated, I think strength is one of the last things to go. Just look at the World's Strongest Man Competition. The winners haven't been dominated by 20 year olds, in fact, I would at most winners were over 30. Which is the point, as long as you remain active and are training, you're not going to be noticeably weaker at 35 compared to 25 imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
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  2. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What about if you went into the Army and did not have a fight from March 1942 until June 1946?
    Then ,having had a 1 round fight in Sep46, a fight inDec47, and a fight in Jun 48,after which you retired until Sep1950.Do you think your strength and stamina would be unaffected?
    Before his extended hiatus Louis' last fight was against Abe Simon for which he weighed 207lbs .Do you think the extra weight of 6 lbs [213lbs] he gained between this fight and the Marciano one added to his strength? The competitors at Strong Men events train totally differently to boxers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Well im glad you're objective and consistent!

    How about the rest of the good folks on here?
     
  4. barberboy2

    barberboy2 Member Full Member

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    I think a lot of people on here are stuck in there ways it there choice I guess, it’s all good fun though as we all have a curious obsession with boxing and it’s history.
     
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  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    You have already said Louis fought over a 100 times in Army exhibitions during this hiatus. He was a PT instructor too I think. This would have kept him ticking over.

    Can I ask something? If Louis strength was no better at 213 than it was at 207lb, why do you think he was physically even stronger in his 20s at 196lb?
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Age.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    So when he’s nearly 20lb heavier, he can’t lean on someone and use that more bit of dead weight in the clinch to assist his natural physical strength?

    They usually use a heavy guy in Tug of war to anchor down at the back. Weight is used effectively to add to strength in some circumstances.

    37 is not 97. Strength is the last to go isn’t it?
     
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  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Pass
     
  9. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I wasn't really speaking specifically about Joe Louis or his specific situation In Re: specifics of his routine or fights from one age to another. I was commenting about the idea that people are clearly stronger at 25 compared to 35. Which is why I made the comments I did, because I don't agree somebody is clearly stronger because their in their 20's instead of 30's. It's true they train differently, but the salient point remains the same, 20 year olds aren't dominating it, in fact, it's people 30 and over who've usually won. Which again goes to the point that, as long as your remaining active and training, strength is one of the last things to go. Now, with the specifics you mentioned, where it seems Joe Louis' body was as active and as conditioned as previously, I would say it could be said that he likely wasn't as strong as he was. If he had ample time before fights and got his body back in the routine, he most certainly could've got his strength back, he just may not have.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This thing about 21 year old, 196lb Joe Louis who fought Carnera (who still hasn’t yet been knocked out by Schmeling) being the strongest version of joe Louis, is clearly something Mcvey has got wrong.

    I just think it unlikely a 21 year old is the strongest version of anyone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Louis picked Carnera up bodily in that fight.Why am I even engaging with you?----
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  13. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think its very unlikely that a fighter is at a peak physical condition, strength, and performance in their last fight before retirement if you're going to include 100 or however many army exhibitions/sparring/newspaper fights and treat them as serious as regular fights and ADD them to his already long career of 69 "official" bouts. No one with an ounce of common sense and objectivity would attempt to say they werent shopworn and physically deteriorated. You can't really have it both ways.
     
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    At 21 Louis picked up a 260lb giant when he only weighed 196 himself. Then it was all down hill from there. He was never as strong again.

    Is that what you believe? It dosnt make sense.
     
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I agree with you. it is very unlikely that a fighter is at a peak physical condition, and performance in their last fight before retirement. And that is precisely why I never said Louis was peak performance. All I have ever really said is Joe Louis was physically as strong as most 213lb contenders. I also believe we was still a very capable contender at that time. Although clearly no longer anything like potentially the best heavyweight of all time.

    I include them only in the context that they happened and that Helped an athlete ticking over during that time.

    There is evidence that many of these contests between the last Walcott fight and the Ezzard Charles fight that Louis had which were called “exhibitions” were actually the real thing. He was paid for them. Many of them were actual contenders worthy of title fights. Some were knocked out like Nino Valdes and Pat Valentino.

    wear and tear for sure. But Louis went into camp for the real fights. He wasn’t on the road fighting each night for the official ones. Louis prepared properly for official fights. was never out of shape. Always set a good example. Only losing three times.

    Louis had miles on the clock, yes, but at 37 he was still the #1 contender because he was still beating everyone on a march to the title. If you half the capability of the best heavyweight of all time you are still left with a decent contender.

    well I have never pretended to want to have it both ways. One way is one thing. The 21 year old kid being the strongest moment of a consistent career. The other way is another thing. Yes Louis was shop worn, but at 37, physically, just as strong as ever.
     


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