Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PetethePrince, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    So according to you they are guilty until proved innocent ?
     
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  2. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joshua was not one of the men listed, but yes I agree that he is a super heavyweight.

    Whatever the case, the three top heavyweights in the world today, are Fury, Wilder and Ruiz.
     
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  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    No. I believe they are only guilty of coming into existence at a time where it is possible.

    Its not their fault.

    Put SHWs into a time where it is not possible for them to be so functional at elite level and they cease to exist. And that was historically always the case.
     
  4. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    Naah
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    You think it wasnt historically always the case that SHWs were never functional enough to make a real impact at championship level?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  6. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You are completely wrong.

    Frazier is the only hwt champion never to score a knockdown in his entire career with his right hand. Secondly Frazier states HIMSELF that his right hand was a work in progress very late in his career. Prior to his second bout with Quarry.
    Thirdly WATCH Frazier fight. He lacks the coordination to throw combinations where his right hand is employed. Usually it’s to the body as he is trying to hit a more stationary target. Frazier’s lack of right hand coordination is a well understood fact.

    Regarding Loughran my father watched him train many times in Pa and relayed to me way before I watched him fight on film his incredible boxing abilities. Again a master boxer who did not need to hold his hands high.
     
  7. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    I've seen all Frazier's filmed fights he never had a great right hand but Futch made it into a serviceable weapon which you completely deny. Maybe your Dad should be here instead of you?
     
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  8. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Frazier was a classic example of a fighter with no right hand. He lacked the coordination to use his right hand effectively and in combination to both head and body. With Frazier if you shut down his left hook you have nothing to worry about from his right. He is not knocking you down or out with that blow. Why do I know this? He never in his entire pro career knocked any opponent down with his right hand. Not a one.
     
  9. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    :risas3:
    Love this guy :qmeparto:

    "What seems to be so simple, is like explaining gravity to a Flatearther."
     
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  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    You think it wasnt historically always the case that SHWs were never functional enough to make a real impact at championship level?

    Lets see you refute that one oh great wise one.
     
  11. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Alzheimer? Ah I know, your playing dumb again. For how many times have we been through this?

    Human height is determined by a combination of genetics and environmental factors making it an active area of research in both the sciences and social sciences. Recent breakthroughs in sequencing the human genome have allowed identification of 697 genetic variants that influence the height of an individual.
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    Although genetics plays an important role in understanding variation within a given population, human growth can be limited by poor childhood nutrition and illness. This makes height strongly correlated with living standards and hence a good proxy for them. Changes to heights over time and within countries paints a picture of economic development. One major advantage of using height as a proxy is the availability of data in the pre-statistical period.

    Human height over time
    A century of human height: how has adult height changed over time?


    People today are taller, on average, than their ancestors 100 years ago. This is true for every country in the world. But how much have human heights changed, and how does this vary across the world?

    If we compare adult men born in 1996 versus those born a century earlier – men who had reached the age of 18 in 2014 versus 1914 – we see that the global mean height for men increased from 162 to 171 centimeters (cm) tall. We see this in the chart below. For women, this increased from 151 cm to 159 cm.

    The average young adult today is around 8 or 9 cm, or about 5%, taller than their ancestors 100 years ago.

    SHWs with skill are very rare. Back then, you´d barely find any. I´ve calculated this for you, remember?

    This content is protected


    This content is protected
     
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  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    That doesn't answer the question of SHWs not making an impact until steroids.

    Heavyweights are not average sized people.

    We both know heavyweight boxing was dominated last century by Americans, who back then, were historically the worlds tallest people. The average heights of nen has changed but the tallest people over 6'4" are still the smallest minority of the population. The rest of the world catching up with the Americans represents this overall change amongst averages but the fact remains even today only 4% of people are taller than 6'2".
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  13. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Either you just don´t read my posts, or youre simply not understanding them. And even now you stick to an ratio (4 % of people are > 6'2").

    I´ve calculated this for you in other postings, the reduction of 2-3" in avarage height reduces the amount of big man drastically. At the same time, the US population has doubled. Particular in the 50s, there might have been an influence of WW2.


    Another thing is: Did they really make an impact since the 80s? How many real good professional SHWs do you find? And do you find much less in the 70s? In fact, even in the 70s or 80s, they´ve been very rare. At the same time, you won´t find the 210 6'1"-6'2" HWs in Rockys era either. Do they require roids to be sucsessful as well? Explanation? The whole era of Rocky is shrinked down, not just the tallest fellows!

    "Human height is determined by a combination of genetics and environmental factors making it an active area of research in both the sciences and social Sciences....human growth can be limited by poor childhood nutrition and illness. This makes height strongly correlated with living standards and hence a good proxy for them."

    Much more men, especially talented black poor kids back then were malnourished. SHWs grew with nutrition and living standards.
    They were rare since the "steroid beginnings", and they were much more rare in 40s/50s. The calculation via normal distribution resulted in a factor of 20-30 less men that size than with 3" more avarage height. Add poor nutrition, illness and living standards and the big boys will grow even more limited.

    Conclusion: The >= 6'4" 220 were exceptionally rare in the 40s/50s, as well as the standard 210 HW boxer of the 70s. They simply didn´t exist in the amount of 70s until today.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Can someone explain Why are we using ruiz vs joshua as an example?

    Ruiz is an obese counter puncher with fast hands and good timing. Rocky was a short swarmer who did a lot of body work and not particularly fast or athletic, could be wild and innaccurate, but he had monster stamina and determination and was always in great shape. The only things they have in common is that they had good chins and were shorter than many of their opponents.

    Joshua is a stiff robotic boxer/puncher with a pawing jab. His stoppages come from breaking his opponents down with good technique, leverage, and accurate heavy combinations. Foreman was a brawler who used an open hand stance to catch punches, shoved/grabbed you to get into position, had a piston like jab and broke you down with heavy hooks and uppercuts. The only thing Joshua has in common with foreman is they lack head movement and both hit hard. Their styles are completely different.

    Not only is this a strange comparison from a stylistic point, even the whole "small guy beats bigger guy" angle is weird because Ruiz was heavier than Joshua. If anything this fight would support the argument that weight matters so i find it very odd to use this to make the case Rocky could overcome the size difference.
     
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Your conclusion is that. Another conclusion is the BMI argument. Training under traditional methods champions were usually within healthy height to weight examples recognized even today. When i say usually im talking the vast majority were historically within these guidelines. Sports science and modern training (PEDs) changed all that. Now the vast majority are way heavier than is considered healthy for their height. I think that is a more telling conclusion.