Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PetethePrince, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. Seamus

    Seamus Devotee of the Little Red Book Full Member

    Feb 11, 2005
    Hmmm... Who should I trust here. The great, insightful and wholly original internet poster we know as Perry 2.0 or this schlub (scroll to :30)...


    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

    Aug 18, 2012
    Silly. Let’s see him in a real tough fight where he gasses down the stretch. Only a guy who believes Kovalev would KO Dempsey, Louis and Marciano would believe being out of shape is a positive attribute for a professional athlete.
    choklab likes this.
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    Yes I sincerely apologise for not including @GOAT Primo Carnera In this since it apllied more to him and his claim of Ruiz having 40lb of solid muscle. You quite rightly call Ruiz obese. The point that DID apply to you was this quote:

    which applies to anyone who thinks the excess fat weight supports a claim that Ruiz is therefore bigger. In actuality he is like a man carrying a 60lb ruck sack in a race.

    I dispute the use of the word clown here. I find that unkind.

    I also dispute the general category "swarmer" being applied here. I think Rocky and Ruiz are more counter/pressure fighters.

    There is no real evidence Ruiz is as tall as his listing. The height differential between AJ and Ruiz is still a relevant comparison between Foreman and Rocky. It is visually a greater height difference than there would be between Rocky and Foreman.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
    Jackomano likes this.
  4. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    May 2, 2019
    He 's asked you to provide this post you say he made ,in fact he's challenged you to do it .You have yet to do so!The onus is on you to provide proof of your allegations ,just as it was to provide proof of your BS that Dempsey was not warned for low blows and Sharkey did not complain to the referee,I provided proof to back up my claims, you provided **** ALL!
    You're just a self- inflated bullshitter ,a bladder of pompous hot air!
  5. Jackomano

    Jackomano Boxing Addict Full Member

    Nov 22, 2014
    This. I’ve met Andy plenty of times back when I used to live by Goossen’s and he was 6’1” at the tallest. Also, I can’t remember his name anymore, but his original trainer got fed up with him, since Andy despite his talent would binge on sweets and sometimes blow off coming to the gym.

    Also, Andy thrives when people stand in front of him and trade, but when guys make him move around the ring he’s a complete fish out of water. I used to see him have complete wars with Arreola and Darnell Wilson and get the upper hand, but on the other hand seen Ronald Gavril and Sakio Bika toy with him and have him sucking wind, since he couldn’t land on them and they’d tear his body up and move out of range. Andy’s weight really works against him against guys with effective mobility and good counters.

    I also think it’s crazy to classify Marciano as just a swarmer, since Marciano had dimensions to his game. He was very good at neutralizing his opponents best tools and taking over the fight. A lot of Marciano’s opponents wrongly assumed he was one dimensional and paid on fight night.
    Gazelle Punch and choklab like this.
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    Wow, this is really good insight. Sakio Bika was a really tough guy, a really hard man and much harder to beat than people realise. He must have been much lighter than Ruiz, but i am not so surprised he would handle a so much heavier guy in sparring.

    Ruiz is not a super heavy. Hes a regular classic heavyweight with a weight issue.
  7. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

    Jan 28, 2018
    Wisdom of the great great BMI

    BMI-Scale: 20----normal----25-----overweigth----30----obese------

    BMI of some boxers:

    Rocky: 25.6 - 27.8
    Ali (212): 26.3
    Lyle (218): 27.1
    Frazier (205): 28.4
    Bonavena (205): 27.5
    Liston (214): 28.3
    Louis (205): 26.3
    Ingo (198): 26.6
    Walcott (194): 26.0
    Johnson (205): 27.5
    Sullivan (200): 28.1
    LaStarza (185): 25.4
    Machen (198): 26.3

    Tall HWs from the juce era:

    Tony Tucker: 25.2 - 26.6
    Riddick Bowe: 25.8 - 27.6
    Witherspoon (219): 26.9
    David Jaco (212): 24.5
    Tyrell Biggs (224): 26.6
    Douglas (228): 27.7
    Richardson (212): 24.5
    Williams (218): 26.3
    Cooney (225): 26.3

    Lets ask the doctor

    1) All these boxers were clearly overweight
    2) Yep, these modern tall roidsters were clearly more musclebound with higher BMI



    Still a fact: SHWs were much more rare in 20s/30s/40s/50s/60s Thats why they did not appear to beat Rockis *** :cool:

    Btw, who thinks a trimmed down Ruiz got Marciano weight or statue, definately belongs to the alternate universe of BF24 :eaea:
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009

    Please allow me to apologise now in advance for any disappointment you might feel after reading this.

    according to modern body mass index charts from 1952 until 1985 every time the lighter champion won he was within a healthy range for his height. From 1959 to 1985 every time the bigger man lost he was over his healthy weight for his height.

    Imagine that?

    Yet after 1985 both winners and losers can be so far off the chart they are within unhealthy limits for their heights.

    So after certain point in heavyweight history Being far heavier than is recommended for height is no longer detrimental at all. Whereas It used to be consistently detrimental. Something changed didn’t it?

    In a recent 12 month span these guys contested for world titles. Each one is in the unhealthy range. This is not the selective grouping you chose, this is a grouping of actual challengers within just 12 months.

    6'5" Gerald Washington 239

    6'2" Chris Arreola 246

    6'3" Arthur Szpilka 233

    6'4" Lucas Browne 250

    6'2" (* claimed) Andy Ruiz jr 255

    6'5" Charles Martin 245

    6'4" Eric Molina 237

    6'7" Dominic Breazeale 255

    Can you find another 12 months from championship history before 1985 where so many challengers were over the healthy limits?
  9. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

    Jan 28, 2018
    Yes! Now you absolutely got it!
    The ****in explanation is right in front of your face chok! And guess what? You read it before!!!!

    "Although genetics plays an important role in understanding variation within a given population, human growth can be limited by poor childhood nutrition and illness. This makes height strongly correlated with living standards and hence a good proxy for them. Changes to heights over time and within countries paints a picture of economic development. One major advantage of using height as a proxy is the availability of data in the pre-statistical period."

    The (often black poor) kids got better nutritioned! As time went on, US men grew higher and heavier, growing kids bodys got more protein and energy.
    Most of Rockys "potential" opponents since the 70s were no longer emaciated string beans, they got enough energy to became fully developed grown ass athletes. Something Rocky did not know from his era, himself beeing a stocky high-BMI strong fighter for that weight!

    Even you admit "Something changed didn’t it?" that there is a discrepancy im comparing these eras. Looking at the 60s and 70s you can throw the roids explanation out the window, since these bigger boxers fit much more in between the 50s<---->80s/90s --> Continues growth, no steroid cut :cool: Best roidless, hence bigger boxers since Patterson: Liston, Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Holmes, Cooney. Appeared in boxing by chance due to more bigger men existing, no roids! :cool:
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009

    Unfortunately This smacks of “clutching at straws”.

    The endless examples of failed drugs tests fails to make an impression on you.

    But without the proof and testimony of this (and there is a lot of it in the heavyweight division right up to the current scene where prominent heavyweights like Baby miller, Ortiz, Povetkin, Fury, Pulev, Whyte, Thompson have all failed tests) there is also the example of boxing training and the physical development regarding heavyweights having just plain changed dramatically. It is undeniable to say nothing changed in training to allow the size and longevity of heavyweights to increase beyond what was achievable before at championship level.

    In the 1960s one of the greatest athletes Charlie Powell would simultaneously fight at heavyweight during the closed Football season whilst active in that sport.. and he would cut weight in order to box,. He would then switch his training in order to regain his weight and musculature again for football. He did this because his size, the size that benefited him in football, was not then actually functional for heavyweight fighting..

    It is now but it was not then!

    That’s what changed.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  11. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Bronsonville Full Member

    Jul 25, 2015
    'Marciano vs Foreman... What Can the Rock Do?'
  12. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

    Jan 28, 2018
    The roid discussion of boxers today, and if these substances were indeed anabolic, is another topic.

    We are here in a thread with Big George Foreman and the other bigger athletes from the 60s/70s. If you say there is a "Steroid Cut", you have to explain why the 60s and 70s spwaned more modern HWs WITHOUT ROIDS beeing used in pro sports.

    As long as you can´t, the explanation for less SHWs and modern HWs before the 60s is:

    Men became bigger, polulation grew --> Higher chance to find skilled modern HWs in Boxing.
    Tall SHWs beeing outcompeted by 180pounders due to lack of roids in the 50s, is H O R S E S H I T .

  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    Bob hazzleton. Look him up. That could be part of the explanation for 60/70s modern heavyweights being bigger than the best 1950s guys. The second part of the explanation might just be that these modern sized ones, (the ones that were not yet SHW guys who were historically less effective and off the healthy weight charts), were about the same size or no bigger as guys like Valdes, Baker, Powell, Holman, Baksi, Joe Louis, Elmer Ray.. who were always quite plentiful and relevant anyway.

    A third factor might even be that the lightheavyweight division had finally took off as a genuine division with enough money in it in its own right rather than an eternal springboard for challenges at heavyweight champions. The Bob Foster/ Conteh/ Galindez years and development of split titles offered more opportunities at that weight. Guys like Pastrano and Foster actually left the heavyweight ranks to become champions at lightheavyweight. We finally got to see career lightheavyweights for the first time.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  14. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

    Jan 28, 2018
    No explanation here. A guy that took too many punches from a young wrecking ball Foreman.

    Some of the guys you mentioned where 195-205, other simply had tons of losses. Ray was the size of Walcott and lost to him.

    Third explanation: Good cause these men had a fair field to measure them against each other. Foster fighting Frazier or Ali was no pleasure to watch. Chuck Leslie another fellow who was into way to many unfair meetings.
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    “the reason Hazelton started taking steroids was because he wanted to last 15 rounds.

    In 1969, at the old International Hotel, Hazleton fought Foreman on national television. Hazelton carried just 183 pounds on his lanky frame for that bout, and the future champion, weighing in at 230, crushed him in one round.

    "I was very skinny when I fought George," he said. "It was very scary getting into the ring against a guy that big.

    "After that fight, I was training in England and an ultimatum was put to me: Either take these pills or get beat up."

    He thought the pills were vitamins, but even after he discovered they were steroids, he didn't care. He immediately bulked up 30 pounds and liked the way he looked.

    Eventually, the pills weren't enough. Hazelton progressed to injections he stuck in his hip.

    He knocked out 14 straight opponents, including Foster in 1978. Hazelton obliterated the legendary light heavyweight champion, who held the title from 1968-74, sending Foster out of the sport for good.

    "I'd have been a mediocre fighter (without steroids)," said Hazelton, who was ranked 11th in the world after beating Foster. "I wouldn't have had a chance in the ring. I didn't have the size.

    "But I'd rather be walking in my 183-pound body than sitting in this wheelchair."

    Hazelton still had his legs when he got out of boxing in 1980, but he still had his steroid problems, too. He started bodybuilding -- increasing to 320 pounds -- and became a body guard for noted rock groups such as Van Halen and Def Leppard.”