Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

I disagree is I don't see any consistent correlation.

Several reasons. First, the difference between Marciano and Frazier in ability to take moderate, steady beatings is not significant (many consider Ali-Frazier III the most brutal exchange of punishment between hws and Frazier could have finished it. Besides, we care for his chin that did not let him down in that fight- not his skin). In a different way, even if Marciano has a better record against moderate power punchers, the difference is small enough that being able to take high amplitude punches brings Frazier's chin on top. So even if you don't think such an consideration of being able to take hard punches if necessary in general, it is in this specific case.

In complete contast to you, I think being able to take a single hard punch (which does not mean that you take it and are still standing but dead on your feet) indicates that your CHIN can handle a steady beating. It does NOT indicate that you have the conditioning (ability to handle body punching), the heart, or stamina to be able to handle a steady beating. However, all this is irrelevant to the chin alone and even then, Frazier is as highly qualified as anyone in those factors.

As an exteme exaggeration to make my point, what if we find out that Marciano is like a Lennox Lewis who takes moderate punches (surely the string of punchers Lennox faced laid SOMETHING on him but he took it) but doesn't take very hard punches as well as Smokin' Joe. This is the reason why people rate Lewis' chin as average (or in some cases, glass). IF we found out something like that - then I guarantee majority of voters would switch sides to Frazier (who did show he can take several high amplitude shots and still be on his feet!). Has Vitali ever taken a steady beating like say George Foreman against Holy? No. Yet, just him being able to handle well a single uppercut against Lennox Lewis makes everyone (including me) jump to the idea that Vitali has an excellent chin. A single uppercut is what made a lot put money on Vitali's chin (even before Sanders etc).

With me refusing to accept that being able to take a steady beating implies on can take a very hard shot: I KNOW what is undrer the trunk (hahaha) with Frazier whereas I don't with Marciano. This makes me more comfortable to put money on Frazier whereas with Marciano it is no better than a guess.

I have nothing against Rocky - I think he would beat Joe Frazier in a head to head match up since he is more two handed against the Frazier whose one eye made him less two handed. I also wish to disagree with the mass and I do believe in the idea of Frazier being more proven.

The real answer is we don't know. We'd need to see something like Rocky vs Tyson.

 

:good

 

Who was wobbled/dropped more as an amateur and an early pro? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his rise to the championship? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his high-level performances? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more against moderate-level punchers? Frazier. It's true that we don't have a direct comparison of how they each stand up against herculean one-punch hitters, but in the areas we can compare them, Marciano wins.

No, I think being able to take singular hard punches is always worth consideration- it's just that it isn't the only important criterion.

Durability, like most attributes of a human body, is a complicated thing. It isn't black and white. Some guys are easy to phase with a single punch, but they snap back to their senses very quickly, while other guys are hard to phase with one shot, but once they are phased, they can't recover and proceed to be knocked out. Some guys are easily buzzed, but have good instincts and are able to fight through it/cover it up, while other guys who might be harder to buzz don't know what to and make it more obvious when they are, which might make them easier to be knocked out and perceived as less durable.
In Frazier's case, you have a guy who can be rocked or floored more easily than some- he was staggered by a few lesser fighters and Foreman bounced him up and down like a basketball- but who is darned near impossible to actually knock out, ie separate from his senses and leave him helpless. He can be rocked or floored, but he is near-impossible to actually knock out and can get up from practically anything. On the other hand, you have guys like, say, Tyson, who are very, very difficult to put down with a single shot or a single barrage, but with whom, once you break past that durability threshold, are liable to be clean knocked out when they do go down.
Imagine there are two reeds you're trying to break. One is relatively moist and soft. When you go to break it, it bends fairly easily under force and seems malleable. However, you find that no matter how far you bend it or twist it, it stays elastic and just won't snap. The other is dry and hard- you push and heave mightily and can't seem to get it to bend an inch, but once you finally apply enough pressure, it breaks clean in half. Sometimes the malleable reed proves harder to break than the brittle one.

Yes, but Lewis didn't take any extended batterings, either. Marciano had fights in which opponents who were at least pretty hefty punchers in their own rights landed some of their best shots on him and connected consistently over periods of numerous rounds, enough, at times, to make his face look like it had been hit by a truck, but were unable to even deter him in the slightest, let alone knock him out. Lewis never came through an extended battering like that to win, and he was twice flattened by single shots, and so he is generally estimated to have had a fairly average chin.

Yes, this is true, but we have no reason to think that would happen were Marciano to face a top-notch puncher. In all the areas his durability has been tested, he stood up as well as virtually anyone.

I don't have the time right now, but later I'll put some points together to show that being able to take moderate-level punches and being able to take accumulations of punches exceptionally well is an indicator that one is more likely to be able to take top-notch punches.

 

:good Intellegent Post :good

 

Me too. I think from the angle you are looking at it - things get distorted. It is like trying to look at a clock at a weird angle when trying to pin down the precise minute - there are many angles that cause distortion. For instance, the way you mention Frazier in the last post, I'd think we're talking about Floyd Patterson here (who was wobbled dropped more...) Later on I shall better explain myself...

 

Marcianos chin was ATG quality, Fraziers chin was good but not in Marcianos league.

 

Walcott was beating on Marciano in the first fight. Walcott landed the shot that drop Marciano, but Walcott would go on and land thsos type of punchings on Marciano thown out the 13 rounds, he relly did bust up Marciano. Did you guys see pics of Marciano in the post fight interview?? He face was pretty mess up. I think that fight prove Marciano's chin.

 

Marciano easy

Frazier has been knocked out and stuned alot of times

 

:nut


Frazier fought much better opponents than Marciano.

 

No, I'm not at all suggesting that Frazier had Patterson-like durability. I didn't say that Frazier was easily wobbled/dropped or was wobbled/dropped especially often, but only that he was clearly wobbled/dropped more often than Marciano(who was barely ever wobbled/dropped). Although, Patterson did have a similar type of chin to Frazier(inferior, but of the same brand)- they were both of the type that was somewhat vulnerable(or, in Patterson's case, very vulnerable) to being hurt or floored if hit with a very hard single shot or a flurry, but extremely hard to actually knock out. Like the elasticy reed that might bend and flex, but refuses to snap.

 

The way you write it, I'd think Joe Frazier had a chin like Floyd Patterson! Yes, Marciano wins 3-1 in the categories you listed (look at his championship defenses and his fights with Ali - including the Foreman fights is just plain wrong - if anything - those fights showed what a warrior Joe Frazier was). However, that is sort of like George Bush having won 30 states (or more) during the 2000 election but each state was won by not a significant margin and so "overall" on the popular vote, Gore was actually ahead. If you look "overall" the difference is not a decisive 3-1. It is closer. The category of Herculean punches is what could potentially be Frazier's California, Pennsylvania, etc (these states counted more heavily).

He doesn't win by a whole lot IMO. We NEED to make a direct comparison against Herculean punches. We don't have it - we really can't make conclusions.

Durability and chin are actually two different things. Durability depends on factors NOT associated with chin like conditioning, heart, stamina, etc. For example you sai "Fight through it and cover up" and "instincts" - totally irrelevant to chin. Let's focus on chin alone. Even if Marciano is more durable in those limited categories...we NEED to see how he does against herculean shots - that category COUNTS BIG for me (I'll explain why)

Foreman would have done that to a lot of fighters. Perhaps Tyson, Marciano, and Dempsey - the other three swarmers - included. This is not exclusive to Frazier.

As are aware, stuff happens in boxing. I don't really see these episodes as significant. Fine, I will say that Marciano has less of these episodes and so he is better in the limited category. But we need MORE for a conclusion.

I think this is a misconception. If Mike Tyson ever got KO'd it is not because his chin let him down (it was either the opponent was boxing him like crazy e.g. Lennox Lewis or Evander Holyfield and punching again and again - just about anyone except Tex Cobb will succumb to that - that is more of a stylistic, overall fighter trait - not chin alone). If Mike Tyson did not recover - it is not because of his chin but his mentality or maybe more decisively - him not having the mentality of Frazier, Holyfield, Marciano, Holmes - guys that fought back hard when hurt. He didn't have the stamina, etc. All this is irrelevant to chin! Tyson was difficult to put down because he had an excellent chin!

Perhaps that is where the difference lies between man and thread. Threads don't have stamina, heart, conditioning etc.

Yes, they were hefty punchers. They had credentials. But they still don't compare to the punching power of George Foreman. Taking repeated shots from those guys is still not the same thing as even take a round of Foreman's punches. It is dubious (I'm not saying plain wrong but doubtful) to regard those experiences relevant to what Foreman brings.

Look at Gatti when he fights Ward - look at his face. He takes some pretty good shots. But that doesn't mean he has a great chin. Sure, Gatti was deterred much more than Marciano (who did suffer KDs and I still can't tell from the video if it was off balance or what - i recall you said off balance - i cannot tell - in any case this is not a big issue) but I'm just saying taking a consistent beating doesn't mean you have a great chin (it DOES mean that you have one hell of a heart as is the case for both the latter and Rocky).

Not enough areas. I need more proof. I don't question that Rocky has a good chin - but a chin to handle GEORGE FOREMAN? That is another story that makes me nervous and demand some reassurance. :think

Oh yes, it is definitely an indication in the RIGHT direction (lol, if you can't pass that test, then why bother to bring in Foreman). However, being able to take accumulations of MODERATE punches requires chin but just as much, STAMINA, CONDITIONING, HEART and these factors taint the analysis of chin alone. Look at Gatti, Alex Stewart, etc.

On CHIN ALONE, being able to take several herculanean shots indicates that your chin is excellent and that the CHIN can sustain sustained punishment (this says nothing about other important factors). Moderate punches to hard punches is no guarantee.

I disagreed with your example of Mike Tyson (it wasn't his chin but other examples). Can you give me 3 fighters since 1990 who could take a single hard punch well but could not take a sustained beating because of chin and not because of heart or some other factor? An example would be like Gatti fighting with his heart, having proven stamina, but gets buzzed too much in the late rounds and so it is his chin that lets him down (not some other deficiency) and he loses.

Tyson was buzzed in round 11 against Holy - but obvious he lasted 11 rounds of a heavy beating - he showed he could take it pretty good - and if he had a HEART like Fraziers - he'd have decisoned. It was also about Holy outboxing him, not his chin being unable to take sustained punishment.

Most boxing fans will dub a fighter as having granite chin if they seem him handle a sing hard shot and be fine - look at Vitali. This is how chins are considered by many.

 

oscar bonavena had frazier on the canvas twice in the same round of their first fight

 

but Marciano had bad head movement and defence so he got hit more

 

Um, where do you get that impression? I never said "Frazier was constantly wobbled and dropped and I could take a better punch than he could." I only said that he was wobbled/dropped more than Marciano, who was hardly ever wobbled/dropped. All-in-all, of course, Frazier was green when he was dropped by Bruce and Bonavena, he took some very serious batterings and kept coming during his rise to the title, he proved his mettle against some guys who could pack a formidable punch as champion and in his post-title career, and he took one of the worst shellackings you'll ever see from one of the most dangerous punchers of all time and was still on his feet after being splattered on the floor six times when the fight was stopped.
In fact, if you flick down to the "How many fighters would blow Frazier out?" thread(which I started), you'll see I've been actively defending Frazier's durability and have been engaged in a long exchange with Mendoza over Frazier's durability, particularly in comparison with Norton's(Mendoza is making the argument that Norton showed a similar level of durability to Frazier and Frazier being considered to have a solid chin while Norton is viewed as having a weak one is the result of bias/skewed perception, and I'm arguing that Frazier was considerably more durable than Norton and much harder to blast out). This is an interesting time for me, because I'm busy in one thread defending and promoting Frazier's chin as underrated and strong and arguing against it in comparison with another fighter simultaneously! Again, I have never said anything here to the effect of the viewpoint that Frazier had a weak chin or was easy to hurt and knock down- only that he did not have as good a chin as Marciano(since a comparison of these two fighters in that department is the topic posed in the heading of this thread).

Yes, but we don't have any evidence Frazier has the advantage in "Herculean" punches, and since Marciano seems to take medium and pretty-hard punches better, the reasonable guess would be that he probably takes extremely hard ones better as well- in the absence of some kind of compelling evidence that Frazier was better at taking "Herculean" punches, the fair conclusion, based on the available evidence, is that Marciano probably had the sturdier overall set of whiskers.

We can't make definitive conclusions, but we can make educated guesses. As you've probably noticed, this entire forum centers around hypothetical scenarios involving fighters we simply can't compare directly. Without objective measurements or common opponents, there is no way to make a sure conclusion that one champion from one era was better than another from a different era, but that certainly doesn't stop us from speculating and making educated guesses about it.

Imagine my friend and I are involved in a shooting competition on a basketball court. We each shoot 100 free throws, and I make 80, while he makes 70. Then we each step outside the circle and shoot 100 three-pointers. I make 60 and he makes 50. Next, we're each going to shoot 100 from half-court, and you're a spectator looking to make a smart bet on the outcome. Now, the fact that I outscored my friend at free throws and three-pointers doesn't prove that I'm better at half-court; but since I seem to be better at moderate-range and fairly long-range shots, the smart bet would be that I'm probably better at very long-range shots, too. By the same token, since Marciano seems to have been harder to hurt/drop with medium and fairly hard punches(not for certain, since, as you say, much of this is incidental and fluid, but since their careers reflect it as best we can see, we can reasonably think he was), he was most likely also harder to hurt/drop with extremely hard punches.

Now, I don't mean to make light of your effort in this next series of paragraphs/arguments(it is well-articulated and detailed), but I don't have the time or space(they've got a limit on the length of posts these days) to quote each one individually, so I will go over your points in this next section in a little broader fashion.

When I talked about "covering up" and "fighting through" being hurt, I didn't necessarily mean that those things indicated a better chin- rather I said that they cause a fighter to be perceived as having a better chin. I was pointing out that there are a great deal of factors which effect an observer's perception of how good a chin one fighter has in comparison with another, that judging this sort of thing off visual interpretation is still a grey and uncertain determination, and that there are some facets which are debatable, ie if one guy takes a single hard punch and doesn't go down, but is separated from his senses and unable to perform competently afterwards, while another guy takes an equally hard shot and does go down, but is fine internally and was only knocked over by the force of the punch, who actually took the shot better?
As for examples of fighters who stood up to one very hard punch but went down under accumulations of lighter punches, look at, for instance, Oscar Bonavena- he was certainly able to take single, crushing hooks from a Joe Frazier without going down, but after 14 rounds of consistent punishment from the much lighter-hitting Ali, he completely snapped and was dropped and left helpless.

Yes, fighters like Vitali Klitschko are known for having granite chins because they survived single powerful shots, but you're ignoring a large portion of the field when you make this remark. To use an example very close to home here, when Frazier's durability comes up, I've often heard remarks to the tune of "No one can watch Ali-Frazier I and tell me Frazier didn't have an excellent chin."