Marciano vs Holyfield

Well let's do a list, and I'll stick to wins against undefeated fighters, given that even if we include losses, Holyfield wins anyway.

Evander Holyfield

Riddick Bowe - World champion 34-0-0-29

Alex Stewart - #2 WBA contender 24-0-0-24

Joe Walcott

Hein Ten Hoff - German HW champ 18-0-3-16

Conclusion- Evander defeated 2 undefeated fighters during his career, including a world heavyweight champion in the prime of his career and a #2 prime contender who had knocked out every fighter he had ever faced. Joe Walcott defeated but one undefeated fighter ( excluding a few guys who were around 1-0 ), and that fighter had less bouts than either of the previously mentioned two.

 

Walcott had Louis down a few times, but Louis won most of the rounds, so to say that he deserved the decision is not so clearly written in black and white. Plus you can't just automatically proclaim someone as being a champion just because you disagreed with the decision. By this logic, Holmes should have been a two time champ soley on the basis of being robbed in a rematch with Spinks, but I don't list it as such.

 

Please, Louis hadn't fought in a real bout in 15 months and only 3 times in 5.5 years. If you think that this was even close to the Louis who was regularly dusting guys like Schmeling, Baer, and Carnera 10 years earlier then I suggest you look again. And to say that this version of Louis KO's a peak Holyfield is stretching things very far.

Yes, but Holyfield won more of his biggest fights. Charles failed 4 times officially to win a world title, or 5 times if you include his first meeting with Charles for the vacant NBA world title. So technically he's like 1 for 6 in capturing the crown. Holyfield is something like 4 for 6, or 4 for 7 if you include his loss to Sultan Ibragimov for the WBO at age 45.

So Tyson was completely washed up at 30, and coming off of 4 strait wins in only a years time, but Louis at age 33 and barely fighting over a five year period was the perfect opponent for Walcott? I think you're playing both sides of the fence here.

 

Please Ali had only fought 2 times in 4 years. If you think that this was even close to the ali who was regulary emabrrasing guys like patterson, terell, chuvalo, liston 5-6 years earlier than I suggest you look again. See how I can use your own logic against you?

I don't think so. Louis was still a great fighter in 1947, he had good size still amazing handspeed, combinations, jab, knockout powe in both fists.

That 6 punch combination KO he landed on walcott was better than any combination he landed in the 1930s.

so did Walcott. .......you got Charles III, IV Louis I, Bivins, Murray, Ray III, H Johnson, I........all big fights Walcott won.

Walcott should have won the title on his first try(kinda like lewis beat holy in the first fight), so that changes things doesnt it?

Louis I- won by walcott

Louis II- Won by Louis

Charles I- won by charles

charles II- won by Charles

Charles III- won by walcott


Thats 2 out of 5

4 straight wins.......Louis was coming off 8 straight wins in 2 years time going into the marciano fight more wins over ranked contenders than tyson did, does that make him a dangerous peak fighting machine?

Bruno was scared out of his mind having already faced tyson once.


Peter Mcneeley was D level at best, how he got rated by one of the joke organizations shows you how corrupt boxing is. Mcneeley is a club fighter, got knocked out by butterbean

Seldon was so scared he went down without being hit, ya BIGGGG WIN LOL.

Buster Mathis Jr was no world beater

Joe Louis was fighting many many live exhibitions staying sharp for the 4 years he was in war. mike tyson was not doing any boxing rotting away in a prison cell for 4 straight years. Joe Louis is also better than Mike tyson so that must be taken into context.

 

Holyfield was 6' 3/4 of an inch in height. marciano was somewhere over 5'10. That's not big. Also, I am not big on the size factor once you go past 175 pounds.

As far as eras, there were many times more pros competing in the division, and it was deep in 1950's.

 

Not True at all, I have long highlights of each of the 15 rounds vs Walcott vs Louis on film and all I saw was walcott outboxing, outsmarting and embarrasing louis most of the fight. Louis won some rounds with his sharp jab, aggresive splurges, but walcott was the clear winner. Everyone thought walcott won, All the papers did. Louis did himself going up to walcott after the fight and said "sorry Joe". he even tried to leave the ring!


When reporters asked louis about Ruby Goldtstein scoring the fight for walcott, Louis replied "I know rube, he calls em like he sees em".


Walcott won at least 9 of the 15 rounds, it was a lennox-holyfield robbery

 

Cruiser or heavy ? Doesn't matter as much as then or now.

Then: 15 rounds. Cut stoppage less likely. Marciano by late stoppage.

Now: 12 Rounds. Cuts could be a factor. While I would still slightly favour Rocky, Holy has it in him to outpoint Marciano if he fights the right fight. (If he tries to brawl with Marciano, he gets stopped).

 

You make good points Magoo. One thing though...I don't think Evander was better conitioned. He was winded against old George and punched himself out against Bert Cooper. Rocky was just a phenom when it came to conditioning and stamina.

My initial reaction was that Holy would be too much for the Rock. After all, he was basically a beefed up version of Charles, who gave Marciano problems. He warred with bigger, stronger men and did well, so it's natural to envision a win for Holy, against the smallish Marciano. If he can stand 32 rounds with the huge Bowe, what could little Rocky do to him?

Then, I got thinking about Evander's inconsistency. He blew hot and cold. Great against Douglas, Tyson and Bowe, he looked very ordinary against Foreman, Holmes and Moorer, and Bert Cooper gave him a life and death battle.
I realise that Holmes and Foreman et al. are very different fighters to Marciano, but my point is that there were many instances were Holyfield struggled, when on paper he should have won easily.

Bert Cooper was not disimilar to Marciano, albeit about 20-30 lbs. heavier. That extra weight was mostly muscle which I don't think helped Bert much. Coop was in reality a beefed up cruiserweight. And he was a late substitute for the Holyfield fight.
In all honesty, this is one Holy should have won comfortably. Maybe he was overconfident, but that's speculation.
Not only was he nearly knocked out, but he hit Cooper with absolutely everything he had for 3 consecutive rounds, and at the end of the 5th was gasping for air, with Cooper still there.
The cut glove allowed him a respite and Holy won two rounds later, but really, it should have never been that close.

I guess one could say the same for Rocky. Should a fading Charles really have pushed him that hard in the first fight?

One thing I think we will definitely see is a brawl. Holyfield was a far superior technical boxer, but he got sucked into brawls far too easily. This will play right into Marciano's hands, as this is the only way he can realistically win. Evander was probably stronger and punched beautifully in combination. Rocky hit harder with both hands and although not a true combination puncher, he threw a steady stream of leather for 15 rounds. It must be noted that every punch he threw was hard. Rocky didn't know any other way.
Both men had iron chins and were always in great condition. I think this would be an amazing fight, with the battle swinging to and fro.

Can Rocky win? I think it's a definite possibility, but by no means a certainty. Many are selling Rocky short here. This is over 15 rounds, which suits him. He may be smaller, probably slower and definitely more prone to cuts, but he was very skilled in what he did, and had a pretty good brain on him - he was no mindless brute. He had savvy.

Evander too can definitely win this fight. His intangibles match up well with Rocky's, which is why it's such a great matchup. He is the bigger, stronger man, and fighting in the trenches is nothing new for him. If Rocky got dirty with low blows, head butts and elbows (which he invariably did) then Evander could do that too.

It's a fascinating fight, with not much to choose between them when all is said and done. Rocky's fighting a massively pumped-up Ezzard Charles (that's a real compliment, btw) and Evander's fighting a human pit-bull who doesn't know the meaning of defeat.

Give me a ticket already. :good

 

Do your research, because you're really selling some of these legends short.
Marciano didn't go life and death with Walcott. He was behind on points yes, but there were still nearly three full rounds left. He was also blinded for about three rounds, which swung the fight in favour of Walcott.
Besides all that, Walcott was not an easy guy to fight. He was unorthodox, set traps for you, and defensively was vastly better than Evander. He fought shimmying from side to side and going backwards. Very difficult style to solve.
By all accounts, he fought a fantastic fight against Marciano. The footage proves this beyond all doubt. Forget his age and concentrate what you see in the ring. Simply dismissing him as "ancient" is totally unfair to the man.
Having said that, the rematch ended in one round. Life and death? No.

Charles gave Marciano a very spirited fight. For 10 rounds or so it was anyone's fight, until Rocky accelerated down the stretch. Perhaps Marciano should have won more easily, but again it was hardly life and death. Maybe people get that impession because Marciano finished with blood running down his face, but although a tough fight, he was not in any danger of losing the title in the long run. I do think though, that this is one fight he should have won more conclusively.
In any event, again the rematch was pretty one-sided and Charles took fearful punishment in both fights.

The Moore fight was a steady beatdown after the knockdown. One-way traffic, and I'm sure the old Mongoose would agree. Age is always a factor, but Archie was a late bloomer. Some of his best fights happened after the Marciano encounter. Just as a point of interest, both men scaled in at 188. If you look at fight film and photo's, Moore carried the weight well. He was muscular and in good condition at the weight.

 

Qawi wobbled Holyfield at Cruiser, Marciano would knock him out.

 

Fists of Furry very solid report about marciano fights, a marciano-clarence henry fight instead of a savold-marciano fight would have been a blast to watch and a very competitive one, too bad it didnt happen

 

I like Evander by TKO ...

 

What size gloves ? Marciano's wintermittens or Holyfields modern equipment. Either way , Holyfield would definetly benefit most from the glove issue as far as power is concerned.

 

I don't think Evander was bigger version of Ezzard, Charles was the better boxer had better hand speed, better jab, better in fighter and was better defensively. While Holyfield was the bigger hitter, physcially stronger and has a better chin. But besides that great post.

 

Thank you.