Marciano vs LaStarza II

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 4, 2008.


  1. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lastarza imo, had about the same foot speed as Paster, I think the movement, would give Louis trouble.
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I'd have see Pastor vs Louis to judge.
     
  3. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well Pastor didnt give Louis much trouble in the 2 match, but he gave Louis fits the first time.
    Farr also gave Louis problems, I belive LaStarza would give about the same problems.
     
  4. Rattler

    Rattler R.I.P. - George Jones Full Member

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    What the hell is that supposed to mean?

    How many HW's of any note ARE going to have the speed or movement of a top flight, natural LHW.

    It's a meaningless statement.
     
  5. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    ALI HAD TROUBLE WITH COOPER,COULD NOT STOP RUDDI LUBBERS, DOUG JONES GAVE HIM A TOUGH FIGHT AND MIDENBURGER AND 5'10 OSCAR BONAVENA, I DO NOT REALLY SEE COOPPER,LUBERS OR THE REST GIVING JOE LOUIS, OR MARCIANO TROUBLE BUT THEY MIGHT...BILLY CONN GAVE LOUIS A REAL TOUGH FIGHT IN THERE 1ST BOUT,HE WAS AHEAD AND ROCKED JOE. LASTARZA WAS A WINNER,HE WAS 53-3 AND BEAT THE 2 OTHER MEN TO BEAT HIM,HE WAS IN GREAT CONDITION AND WAS UP TO REMOVE THE ONLY LOSS HE DID AVENGE TO MARCIANO...MARCIANO STOPPED HIM SO A WIN IS A WIN BUT WHEN FIGHTERS ARE WINNERS AND FIGHT FOR THE TITLE THEY SOMETIMES RISE TO THE OCCASION,BUSTER DOUGLAS DID, AND HE NEVER SHOWED THAT FORM BEFORE OR AFTER. ZELCO MAROVIC DECIDED HE WAS NOT GOING TO GET STOPPED BY THE POWERFULL LENNOX LEWIS,EVENDER HOLYFIELD DID THE IMPOSIBLE STOPPING TYSON AND IN HIS FIGHT BEFORE THAT EVANDER STRUGGLED WITH BLOWN UP MIDDLEWEIGHT BOBBY CYZ. WE REALLY DONT KNOW WHO WOULD HAVE STRUGGLED OR LOST TO LASTARZA THAT NIGHT BUT WE DO KNOW ROLAND CAME TO FIGHT AND GAVE HIS BEST VS ONE OF THE BEST OF ALL TIME
     
  6. Marciano Frazier

    Marciano Frazier Well-Known Member Full Member

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    No, LaStarza was no more than five pounds under his normal weight for the Marciano title fight. In his last four fights beforehand, he was 188 1/2, 190, 189 1/4, and 190, compared with 184 3/4 for the title shot. Not exactly a gaping divide.

    Second, according to the accounts of both Marciano and LaStarza himself, it was a pair of (very legal) body shots in round seven that really took the "zip" out of LaStarza's movement and set the momentum of the fight firmly in Marciano's favor. This bit of rationalization is characteristic of a pattern of behavior you display towards Marciano- time and time again, Marciano faces an opponent who is ordinarily known for good stamina and conditioning and has no history of fading late in fights; time and time again, that opponent breaks down terribly in the mid-to-late rounds against Marciano; and time and time again, rather than crediting Marciano with an exceptional ability to bring about that sort of collapse, you attribute it to some kind of vague outside circumstance and choose to focus on whatever portion of the fight reflects least positively on Marciano.

    Third, you're being overdramatic with the "behind-on-points"/"staging-a-comeback" thing. Being behind 4-2 after six rounds in a 15-round championship fight is hardly a remarkable deficit. Marciano was comfortably ahead on points after 10 rounds, and of course he absolutely bludgeoned LaStarza in the 11th. This is a perfectly routine victory; no other champion would be looked at as having had some massive struggle and required a courageous comeback because he was slightly behind on points well before the halfway point of the fight.
     
  7. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :good :good WELL PUT
     
  8. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I think you forgot to turn off capslock there, Bummy.
     
  9. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    you are right,Chris.... it was dark in the room and I have my contacts in it was either cap lock on or misspelling a lot, which I can do anyway, It was not for any type of expression....LOL
     
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    In fairness to marcianos era, that was because lastarza took on relativley mediocre competition. His manager Jimmy "fats" Deangelo avoided the top young black contenders of his day clarence henry, nino valdez, bob baker and he would not put lastarza in against the experienced greats moore,walcott, charles, louis.
     
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    So let me get this right, you think other all time great would have the same problems vs LaStarza? I don't.

    The fight went down exactly as I said it did. Lastarza hit the wall for sure, but he slowed down the same time Marciano started to land flush foul shots. Coincidence? Sometimes one or two could shots can swing a match. Shades of Rhaman vs Tua I.

    Maybe LaStarza simply lack the stamina to box and move for long periods. Roland made Marciano miss plenty, and Rocky looked too slow to catch up to him for the first six rounds. Marciano did not land much at all until the fouls came around. I could do the punch stats if you wish. It might surprise you.

    Or perhaps it was Rocky power that slowed Lastarza down.

    I think it was a combination of the three.

    As for the weight, I was going on what ESPN classic said. They have been wrong before. Ok so Lastarza was not much under his normal weight. On the other hand, I read Lastarza over trained for this match because he trainer worked him too much.

    As for the scoring, no Marciano was not comfortably ahead on points in the tenth. One judge had it 5-5, the other 6-4 for Rocky. Hardly comfortably ahead.
     
  12. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Archie Moore helped clear out the Heavyweight Big boys as well as the lightheavys with BIG IDEA's with wins over Baker KO8 2 UD's over Valdes a Ko over Harold Johnson and Charles helped out with explosive wins over Coley Wallace and Bob Satterfield. How do we know Lastarza was a tough cookie, because he gave Marciano a tough fight the first time but my uncles from the Bronx where Roland was from thought Marciano won the 1st fight pretty clear,even though they were rooting against the Brockton Mass. guy......and Rocky dominated the 2nd fight with a nice finish but Rocky always was stronger the 2nd time around
     
  13. Grebfan9

    Grebfan9 Member Full Member

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    I agree with Mendoza that Rocky did NOT look good in their second
    fight. Rocky was outboxed in the early rounds. Rocky looked
    sloppy in the early rounds.

    I disagree with Mendoza on one point - bringing up Liston, Ali, etc.
    and saying that they would'nt have trouble with LaStarza.

    Styles make fights - LaStarza would likely have been chewed up
    by Sonny Liston and Ali.

    Though, I think that Henry Cooper would have been slammed by
    Rocky. Styles make fights!!!

    Tho, Mendoza is VERY knowledgeable and brings up some great
    points!!!


    Grebfan9
    This content is protected
     
  14. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Your version of the fight overlooks the body punches Marciano was landing. Watch the 4th round and those brutal rights to the body, and there were well above the belt. Marciano was landing to the body starting in the first round, several punches per round. LaStarza was throwing to the head and not catching Marciano that flushly. I am not surprised that these body punches sapped LaStarza.

    Also, I don't really understand all this talk about struggling. I think LaStarza was lucky to be viewed as ahead after six rounds, myself. It was pretty close and Marciano was actually doing the damage with his body work. Marciano dominated after the seventh, pulled ahead on the cards, and stopped LaStarza in the 11th. Why is this struggling. It is not like going 20 rounds to a draw.

    As for LaStarza against other ATG, I don't think he does well against bigger boxers from later eras, such as Ali, Holmes, and Lewis. Styles make fights and he did not have the style to trouble them.
    How LaStarza would have done against the old champions is far more debatable. Jeff went 20 with Choynski, who was 20 lbs lighter than LaStarza. Johnson was knocked down by a middeweight Ketchel. Dempsey went the distance with the much smaller Gibbons. I have seen all these men on film and all of them are no better than even money against LaStarza in my judgement. Don't forget, he was a real heavyweight who was bigger than all of them. He would have had 10 lbs over Gibbons and 20 lbs or more over Ketchel and Choynski.
     
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Honestly, Archie Moores heavyweight run in the early 1950s impresses the hell out of me.
     


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