Marciano vs Matthews

I said I was glad to see you back ,that opinion has proved to be mistaken.

Every response from you has been a childish diatribe of sulk.
Marciano was a great fighter , and also a seriously dirty one,if you dispute that you don't know half as much about the 50's heavies as both of us thought you did.

 

What are you going on about Mcvey? Marciano wasn't even real! To think a guy as un gullible as you would believe that there was actually a heavyweight champion that went undefeated :rofl

 

Bless my soul I come face to face with reality.:yikes

 

I'm glad you took that as well as I intended

 

I always appreciate humour.:good

 

....suzyq....thanks for the hello. i have had a huge writing task....jazz...not boxing,,,,sO i've been
away for a while from the forums. i'm still on boxrec as jaclem but i'm in the process of trying to get my email account switched to a new provider and they are driving me nuts. if i do come on under a new name i'll announce i am jaclem.

.i have been thinking a lot about ezzard lately though...so i may come up with something worthwhile to write....thanks for the encouragement. :good

 

Just a question. I watched this fight beginning to end.

At what point in the first round is the flagrant butt? I didn't notice one, at least by the usual standards of American fights of that era.

Doesn't mean I am saying it isn't there, but I would like to be able to study that part of the film.

 

If Suzie can say that, can you admit that Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson were also dirty fighters?

Marciano was never DQ'd as a professional. Jack Johnson was ( and went low a few times in other fights, hit on the breaks, and pinched biceps, held and hit ) in other fights.

Dempsey was a kidney shot specialists, and his low blow / left hook combo is the reason why he Dempsey won the Jack Sharkey match. Prior to that moment Shakrey was clearly winning and had Dempsey in trouble.

Some quotes:

Sharkey dominated the early rounds. “I thought he was going to knock me out,” Dempsey admitted afterward.

Broadcaster Graham McNamee told radio listeners that Dempsey was "groggy" and appeared to be "going" after a Sharkey barrage in the first, the third, and again in the sixth.

James Dawson of the New York Times reported that Sharkey had "badly outboxed Dempsey," leaving the former champion to "flounder around the ring, flat-footed, bewildered, and staggering like a blind man finding his way."

Harvey Woodruff of the Chicago Tribune considered Dempsey "finished" in the fourth and a "gory sight."

Dempsey landed a series of low blows in round seven. Sharkey turned to the referee to protest, and Dempsey knocked him out with a left hook to the chin. "I hit him with one of the last good punches of my life,"

Dempsey said later. "It was everything I could throw. His chin was sticking out there, unprotected. I couldn’t miss."

>>> The honest reply is all three of them could be dirty.

 

Marciano was a bit careless with his head there but nothing blatant imo.

 

Suzie is being childishly sarcastic I should have thought that was blatantly obvious given his user name is Suzie Q and he lives in Bostonatsch
.Sharkey was the low blow specialist , not Dempsey.
Dempsey was careless where he hit but never complained when he received it back in kind.

Anyone slung out for kidney punches during Dempsey's time?

The Sharkey fight shows Dempsey gradually gaining the intiative Sharkey was never comfortable with body shots and Dempsey's corner instructed him to "keep pounding his belly".
I think Sharkey was running out of steam.
Let's not forget it was the left hook to the jaw that ko'd Sharkey, not the low punch.


Johnson was dsq'd once for a disputed foul against Jeannette .

Some ringsiders declared Jeannette dived.
He won 5 fights on dsq's:think

Jeannette tried the same thing against McVey in one fight.

1914-07-15

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Joe Jeannette

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St. Nicholas Arena, New York, New York, USA D NWS 10 10
Atlanta Constitution reported a win for Jeannette, after he was given three minutes to recover from a low blow in the first round, Trenton Evening Times felt the blow in the first round wasn't a foul at all, but a blow to the pit of the stomach, and that in fact Johnson beat Jeannette twice that evening, once by knockout, the other time on points. Report carried in the Calgary Daily Herald supported the foul having been committed in round 1 and said Jeannette outpointed and outpunched the bigger man. Draw according to New York Times



In another fight Jeannette fouled Johnson several times.



It was perfectly legal to hold opponents biceps during Johnson's time.

Hitting on the breaks, yes or no ,was mutally decided upon before hand .



.You are wrong about the Burns fight the fighters agreed to it ,post fight Burns ruefully admitted that should he fight Johnson again he would insist on "clean breaks".

Johnson hit Moran on the break and was warned for it, there is no other instance that constitutes a foul that you can point to in his fights.
Ferguson hit him low many times, Flynn flagrantly butted him.

Incidentally Moran butted Johnson several times in that fight and back handed him twice.


Marciano was a dirty fighter who would have been slung out in the UK.
He was also a great champ.


Johnson fought all over the world.
Never dsq'd means what? Fritzie Zivic was never dsq'd was he a clean fighter? Was Holyfield? Pedroza? Neither were dsq'd

 

Thank you very much.

I watched it carefully and stopped it several times to catch the precise moment. It was difficult to stop it at the right point (5:55) but I managed it a couple of times and it certainly appears to me that Marciano's head makes contact with Matthews' right shoulder with Matthews dancing back quickly.

As a practical matter, I doubt this made any difference in the fight at all. Certainly Matthews shows no sign of distress. I think he was actually beginning to move backward before Marciano came forward.

 

Dempsey was in trouble on film and even admitted so. He went low several times in that round, and when Sharkey was hurt from the low blows and complaining to the ref Dempsey quickly launched a left hook. This fight should have been a NC or DQ.

Disputed? Bull . A doctor confirmed the blow was low. We have been over this before.

According to the Philadelphia Item ( Primary and local source ) , Jeannette was winning the fight until he was fouled.

According to the Boston Globe,Johnson fired several low blows and hit Jeannette when he was down from the low blows. So addition to the low blow foul, he hit a man while down. D-I-R-T-Y.

Depends on the rules. Legal at times perhaps. Not very sporting for sure.

Johnson was caught hitting on the break vs Moran. A clear foul.

Johnson likely landed low punches on Ferguson, which is why he retaliated.


"Enraged by Johnson's insulting patter and left-hook to the belly, Ferguson took advantage of a bearhug by Johnson to drive his knee twice into his opponent's groin. Ferguson had taken the first two rounds, round three was even, but Johnson began driving home a wicked left hook to the stomach to take the fifth and sixth, and one or two may have strayed. "

An even fight with a journeyman type? Hardy world class stuff.

Yes he did. The same Flynn years later somehow knocked Dempsey out in one round

In the Cuba fights post Willard, I posted the report vs Lodge it was reported by a docotr than Johnson once again went low.

The truth is Johnson went low in quite a few fights.

I agree he could be dirty. I just find you having too many double standards. Johnson and Dempsey could be just as dirty.

 

https://youtu.be/a1IOPl_8iWQ

A blatant head but is a nasty thing to do but following through with a head is just sneaky rather than evil thing to do. It's more insulting than anything else if it is done blatantly where as among fighters there is almost a little begrudging respect in trying to make it look accidental.

I think most fighters know how to follow through with the elbow, head, shoulder and forearm for extra luck but most would prefer to land a good clean punch on target. After all leaving your head or a limb out a bit too long exposes an opening.

Marcianos fouls were more a case of a secondary connection. The man was so cheap outside of the ring that he was proberbly looking to make two connections for the price of one. If the punch didn't land he was going to follow in with an un-gloved body part.

If you look at 5.15 Marciano connects solidly with a head but. He steps in closer than necessary to land a short left to the body whilst looking down. I think it is a better infringement than the 5.51 incident that is inconclusive. However the most even a modern referee could do is ask him to be "more careful with the head" rather than actually step in and give an official warning because it is too cleverly done.

There were more dirty fighters than Rocky.