Marciano vs Matthews

I just find I can 't be bothered to debate with you. I have zero regard for you either as a person or as an objective judge on Jack Johnson given this fact , what would be the point of me debating further with you ?

Pollack's view of the Johnson dsq show most reporters giving Johnson a very big first round ,why would he need to foul Jeannette who had never beaten him? Why would he need to do so in the 2nd rd when the fight had hardly begun?
Many posters have produced concrete evidence to refute some of your more outlandish claims yet you still make them from time to time.
There is therefore no point in directing you towards primary statements that flatly contradict your views.
You know what my position is regarding your self, I've told you often enough and I'm just about sick of the whole subject
.Do the poster who made this thread the courtesy of confining your comments to the subject.ie Marciano v Mathews and find some one else to debate with because I'm done with you,and your manic, obsessive hate of Jack Johnson.END OF

 

Thanks for the heads up I'm not sure that Marciano's head made contact with Mathews face and to be honest I can't see that it was a factor in the result.

 

There is a better one at 5.15.

 

Mcvey versus Mendoza is often the only match worth viewing in boxing these days, and a true classic throwback to an era when countless rematches would take place.

Why would I even bother thinking about past prime Pac versus past prime PBF for big money when I can watch these literary exchanges here for free?

 

Cleanest? Maybe Patterson.

 

And Louis.

 

Harry was watching out not to get hit hard with the right hand but walked strait into a double hook, delivered quickly and powerfully

 

Harry Matthews nearly got a title shot with Walcott in 1952 before he was forced to fight Marciano in an "eliminator." (This came after he nearly got a middleweight title shot against Sugar Ray Robinson in 1951.) Here are some articles that describe the Walcott-Matthews negotiations earlier that year.

How different would Matthews' career have been if he got to challenge for both the middleweight and heavyweight titles (against Robinson and Walcott)?

MATTHEWS DUE TITLE SHOT, IT SAYS HERE
(Seattle Times, Tuesday, January 22, 1952)
By Alex Shults

Harry (Kid) Matthews will be signed to battle Jersey Joe Walcott for the heavyweight boxing crown within the next few days.

The bout will be under the promotion of Harry Hunt, Los Angeles
public-relations man. He is affiliated with an independent motion-picture outfit.

Matthews' manager, Jack Hurley, made that prediction this forenoon as he and Harry prepared to make a mysterious trip in "the next day or two."

Hunt was named as promoted yesterday by Felix Bocchicchio, manager of the Negro champion, in answer to a demand for immediate action from Bob Christenberry, chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission. Christenberry said that Walcott's title will be taken from him in New York unless he agrees within 15 days to meet a legitimate challenger.

Matthews, Rocky Marciano of Brockton, Mass., and Ezzard Charles, from whom Walcott lifted the title last summer, are the leading contenders.

"That's the man," said Hurley, when told that Bocchicchio had named Hunt as the promoter.

"I talked with him by telephone last night," Hurley added.

"Hunt was ready to guarantee Matthews $75,000 to box Sugar Ray Robinson, the middleweight champion, in Detroit last year, but he couldn't sign Robinson."

Television rights for a Walcott-Matthews fight would be worth a fabulous amount, said Hurley, whether sold to a sponsor or retailed through theater television.

Hurley described Hunt as an intimate of Walter O. Briggs, owner of the Detroit Tigers, who died last week.

Bocchicchio later said Walcott was considering an offer of $150,000 from Sam Silverman, Boston promoter, to defend his title against Marciano indoors in March or outdoors in June.

"And in addition," Bocchicchio said, "we have been guaranteed an additional $750,000 for the television rights regardless of where the fight is held."

Bocchicchio said he needed a few days to consider the offer.

Tom Tannas and Jake Mintz, managers of Charles, said, "Our contract calls for Walcott to fight Charles before he meets anyone else for the title."

Christenberry, replying to a question as to whether he knew such a contract existed, said: "We do not have such a contract on file at the commission."

PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE CHAMPION
(Seattle Times, January 22, 1952)
By Eugene H. Russell

Negotiations for a heavyweight championship fight between Jersey Joe Walcott, the champion, and Harry (Kid) Matthews of Seattle came out into the open today. Joe's manager, Felix Bocchicchio, last night declared, "It looks like we're going to close for a fight with Harry Matthews."

Jack Hurley, manager of Matthews, has been in close contact with Bocchicchio for many weeks and admits arrangements for the bout are near completion.

It was not intended for announcement just yet, but the demands of the New York State Athletic Commission yesterday that Walcott sign for a title defense forced the issue. New York and the National Boxing Association have rules requiring champions to defend their titles every six months or forfeit their crowns. Walcott won the title last July.

 

WALCOTT CAMP PREFERS MATTHEWS
(Associated Press, January 22, 1952)

NEW YORK -- Felix Bocchicchio, Jersey Joe Walcott's manager, today indicated he would placate the New York State Athletic Commission by signing within the required 15-day period for a defense of Walcott's heavyweight title.

"We may decide to sign within 15 days for three bouts -- probably a first one in March with Harry (Kid) Matthews on the West Coast and a title defense in June," Bocchicchio said, adding: "We have a verbal agreement -- made under duress -- to defend against Ezzard Charles and it is safe to say we will take on one tune-up fight, preferably against Matthews."

Bocchicchio didn't explain how Walcott, as heavyweight champion, could engage in a tune-up with Matthews. Every time a heavyweight king steps into a ring for a bout he risks his title.

TV SETUP MAKES VEGAS BOUT UNLIKELY
(Seattle Times, January 31, 1952)
By Alex Shults

Only one development is fairly certain on the heavyweight boxing-championship scene: Jersey Joe Walcott will be forced to defend his title some time next spring or summer.

His opponent may or may not be Harry (Kid) Matthews of Seattle.

Las Vegas probably will not be chosen as the site of a Walcott-Matthews bout.

The Pacific Telephone & Telegraph Co., which owns and operates the coaxial cables necessary to pipe television across the nation, informed The Times that Las Vegas has no coaxial cable.

And terms discussed yesterday in Washington dealt with gate receipts, plus television and radio rights. The boxing setup today demands that any title fight in the West be sent via live broadcast to Eastern TV viewers.

A qualified TV engineer here expressed surprise when he heard of the idea of telecasting a Las Vegas fight via an airplane hovering overhead.

"It is technically possible," said the engineer, "but it is not feasible."

The engineer added that telecasting from airplanes has not been tried.


HURLEY ASSURED IBC PACT WON'T HOLD
(United Press, Thursday, Jan. 31, 1952)

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- A person close to the negotiations reported today that champion Jersey Joe Walcott had received an advance of $50,000 after he and Harry (Kid) Matthews signed "conditional contracts" for a heavyweight title fight in May at Las Vegas, Nev.

That report exceeded considerably the substance of last night's official announcement from the negotiators. The announcement merely that Walcott had been offered a $250,000 guarantee for the fight and that his manager, Felix Bocchicchio, had "tentatively accepted" the offer.

Today's informant said, "the bout is set for Las Vegas unless attorneys for the International Boxing Club can prevent its being staged."

Promoter Jim Norris and his IBC have prior contracts on Walcott. Those documents are in the safe at New York headquarters of the IBC. One is a three-year contract for Walcott's exclusive services. The other is a three-way contract in which Walcott guarantees to make his first defense against ex-champion Ezzard Charles in a return bout under IBC promotion.

Harry Hunt, a California "public relations counsel" who is negotiating the Las Vegas fight, assured the managers of Walcott and Matthews here yesterday that neither IBC contract would "stand up in court because of their monopoly angles."

Jack Hurley, who manages contender Matthews of Seattle, eagerly agreed that the documents "will be tossed out of court."

In Miami, Norris said today he had no reason to believe that Walcott would not go through with his contract to give Charles a return match.

Norris refused direct comment on reports in Washington that Walcott and Matthews had signed "conditional contracts" for a heavyweight title fight.

"I know nothing about that offer," Norris said. "Until I talk with<BR>
Bocchicchio here Saturday, I have no reason to believe that he will back out on his contract to fight Charles."


NAME OF ACTRESS SURFACES
(Associated Press, January 31, 1952)

LOS ANGELES -- The name of movie actress Irene Dunne came into the picture -- somewhat unwittingly on her part -- tonight in the tangled negotiations involving a title fight between heavyweight champion Joe Walcott and Harry (Kid) Matthews.

A spokesman for Miss Dunne said a group, unsolicited by her, came to her several weeks ago, suggesting that she sponsor such a match for charity, all profits to go to a local hospital fund.

He said the group included Harry Hunt, the promoter who conferred in Washington yesterday with the fighters' managers; Vincent X. Flaherty, Los Angeles Examiner sports columnist, and perhaps one or two others whose names she doesn't recall.


IBC OPPOSES MATTHEWS-WALCOTT GO
(Associated Press, January 31, 1952)

MIAMI, Fla. -- Jim Norris, president of the International Boxing Club, said today he would not release Jersey Joe Walcott, heavyweight champion, from his IBC contract.

"The only thing I'm interested in is Walcott's fight with Ezzard Charles,
former heavyweight title holder," he said.

Norris made the statement after announcement of a tentative agreement between Walcott and Harry (Kid) Matthews of Seattle for a fight.

In Pittsburgh, one of the three members of the Pennsylvania Boxing
Commission, John D. Holahan, said: "I intgend to oppose vehemently any recognition in the state of Pennsylvania wherein Walcott and Matthews are to be considered in the heavyweight title fight.

"I am amazed to hear there is any suggestion of the Walcott-Matthews heavyweight fight. Charles is the logical No. 1 contender for the crown and Walcott definitely has a contract for a return match.

"Matthews is not listed among the first ten heavyweights and is not a
qualified contender."

Jake Mintz, co-manager of Charles, said he isn't a bit disturbed by reports of the proposed Walcott-Matthews fight.

"These are not the old days," Mintz said. "We have boxing commissioners to protect the great sport. I still feel confident that Walcott will go through with the contract and appreciate what we have done for him."


WALCOTT GETS NEW DEADLINE
(Associated Press, Friday, February 1, 1952)

NEW YORK -- The New York state athletic commission took itself off a technical limb Friday by giving heavyweight champion Jersey Joe Walcott more time to sign for a title defense against Ezzard Charles.

As far as the commission is concerned, the 38-year-old Camden, N.J.,
gladiator now has until February 17 or so to sign for a title bout, instead of February 5. The February 5 deadline had been set by Commission Chairman Robert Christenberry on January 21.

At the same time the commission Friday held a hearing into the Johnny Saxton-Livio Minelli fight which was stopped in the seventh round at Madison Square Garden Friday and cleared all concerned. Minelli's purse of $5540 was ordered released. Referee Ruby Goldstein stopped the bout in the seventh, awarding a victory to Saxton. The commission said Goldstein's action in halting a "one-sided match" was within his authority.

Christenberry and his two commissioners, C.B. Powell and Leon Swears, clarified the Walcott date issue in response to questions by newsmen.


WALCOTT'S TITLE GO ACCEPTANCE ARRIVES
(Associated Press, Monday, Feb. 18, 1952)

NEW YORK -- A spokesman for the New York State Athletic Commission announced today it had received a telegram from the manager of Jersey Joe Walcott saying the world heavyweight boxing champion had agreed to meet Ezzard Charles in a title bout.

"Walcott has complied with the commission's request," the commission spokesman said.

Bob Christenberry, commission chairman, recently gave Walcott until Feb. 17 to agree to a title bout, or be stripped of his championship. With Feb. 17 falling on Sunday, Christenberry extended the time to today. The commission said the telegram was received from Felix Bocchicchio, Walcott's manager. Bocchicchio prefers the bout be held in either Philadelphia or Atlantic City. The fight probably will be set for June.

DEMPSEY SAYS HENRY MAY BE CHAMP
(Associated Press, Monday, Feb. 19, 1952)

CHICAGO -- Jack Dempsey did a bit of handicapping today for the current crop of heavyweights.

The old Manassa Mauler, speaking before the Union League Club, had this to say about today's fighters.

Harry (Kid) Matthews -- good fighter, except he is a lightheavy, not a heavyweight. One handicap, he's getting old. He's 29.

Clarence Henry -- lots of ability and a terrific puncher. If he improves in the next six months as he has in the last eight, may wind up the champion.

Ezzard Charles -- good fighter, but like Matthews, he's a lightheavyweight.

Joe Walcott -- gives his best but he's old.

Rocky Marciano -- pretty good puncher, but doesn't have much savvy. Not too much experience. Can he hit a good man?

 

.....my post on marciano's weapons was not intended to say i thought mathhews would have beaten rocky had rocky fought clean. matthews would have been kayoed anyway.

 

Come on I was just joking. Lighten up. I'm sorry I won't tease anymore

 

most of the great ones were dirty, I can not really think of any that were not perhaps Joe Louis but he was pure killer. You are right about Sharkey but he always got caught

Zivic was a master, he was so good at being dirty that he got Bummy Davis infuriated and DQ'd, its the subtle dirtiness of master like Marciano Elbows, Dempsey laces, Ali (neck lean), Lewis (hold and Hit), Holyfield (head) Holmes (thumb master)....Zivic was a master of it all and I think the guys that do it without doing in the ref's view are the best masters

 

Don't forget Joe Louis.

 

Agree. Louis was a gentleman in the ring

 

The series has ended, no more hogging others threads, no more banging my head against a brick wall, i'ts done and dusted.


On a more pertinent note Mathews said he dreaded counter punching "those big shots miss you by inches". Jack Hurley did ,a fabulous job of hyping and building him up with judicious matchmaking.Parlaying," The Athlete" into a big money shot.