Marciano vs. Norton

Why would you assume that Ali's style is the one to beat Lewis when the men who actually did so were the big punchers? Nobody outboxed Lewis or Klitschko. As Mendoza never tires of pointing out, Vitali has rarely even lost a round.

As for the "historians", Bert Sugar does not even have Lewis in his top ten.

 

To the main question,don't think Marciano would be a good match for Norton.Rocky could take a punch,go the limit, great endurance,and score a knockout.I can't imagine Norton just deciding he is gonna score a decision over the Rock.Norton's best fights were going the limit with Young,Ali,and Holmes,where he won at a 50% clip.None of these guys were great in fighters.Norton could get careless,and wasn't known for taking punishment.

 

Neither of them ever fought anyone close to Ali, with his speed, jab, defense and smarts. I do give both of them credit, as I keep saying, Lewis would of had the best chance of beating Ali. I'll even say that if anyone could beat Ali, it would be Lewis.

 

Marciano wins by KO in the first round.

 

I wouldn't be that certain that the 6' 3" Ali outjabs the taller Lewis and the much taller Klitschko. The foot speed will be negated by the sheer height of someone like Klitschko. Vitali wouldn't have to chase after him. He will be able to reach him from the outside. Most of Ali's much shorter opponents couldn't do that.

Lewis fought Holyfield and Holyfield is much closer to Ali than any of Ali's opponents are to Lewis or Vitali.

 

True, BUT Holyfield wasn't close to Ali when it comes to speed, etc. Ali's left jab was the fastest (timed) in heavyweight history. Ali had no trouble with 6'6" Terrell, even though Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko.

 

"Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko"

Henry. I agree.

You are arguing that speed overcomes size. I don't think so, or Billy Conn and Sugar Ray Robinson and Roy Jones would have been heavyweight champions. Speed only overcomes size to a degree.

 

Terrell was no where close to Klitschko or Lewis...Terrell was not a puncher and was little else than tall for the comparison. Who did Ali fight that was a good as Lewis or Klitchko....overall

 

Actually, Jones was, BUT not really, and Conn could have been if he played it smart, BUT I know what your saying.

Some people might say, Foreman, Frazier & Liston BUT the real question would be, who did they box that was as good as Ali?

Most top historians have Ali or Louis as #1, BUT that is going by their overall career. Head to head, they still have Ali, BUT Louis drops down a little. I guess it depends on how you want to rate them.

 

Honestly Henry,

I respect the hell out of you and your opinion, but for you to buy into that Bull is insane. Marciano had a 68" reach, HE HAD HUGE LEVAGERE on the inside with his short arms. Marciano both technically and efficiency was one of the BEST inside fighters we have ever seen on film, and his 68" reach was the reason why. HUGE LEVERAGE advantage. I dont care what Marciano said, film tells a different story than his choice of words

 

"Who did they box that was as good as Ali"

Each other.

As for Frazier, too small at 205 to handle these big men.

Liston--Also much smaller and the only men he ever beat over 220 lbs were the mediocre Zech and Wepner, it is really a shot in the dark that he handles skilled and powerful fighters this much bigger than he was.

Foreman--Perhaps the best chance, but both Vitali and Lewis are better boxers. Foreman's best victims, Frazier, Norton, and Moorer, were tiny compared to the modern giants. Cooney was close in size, but he was totally washed up and not as good to begin with.

 

Thank you, BUT here's the article I was talking about:

Heavyweight: Toxey Hall: He had a piece of the Rock ... Every Day:

By Pete Ehrmann

Toxey Hall thought his boxing career had been TKO'd when he walked into Chicago's Midwest Boxing Gym one day in the spring of 1953. Although he had local Golden Gloves and Catholic Youth Organization titles on his resume, and had gone 7-2-2 as a professional boxer the year before, win or lose, Hall's face swelled up like a beach ball. It didn't take much for it to happen, either.

"I could blow my nose and swell up," said Hall, now 72. "After a while, I decided boxing was not my thing to make a living."

Born in Prentiss, Mississippi, Hall grew up helping his scharecropper father on their 180-acre farm. Good at football and baseball, he had no particular interest in boxing until he joined the Army in 1946 and had several bouts. When he was discharged, Hall decided to settle in Chicago, and began working in a cardboard box factory. On the second floor of the building was the CYO Gym, whose director was Tony Zale, the 1940s middleweight champion. Hall began working out under Zale' s tutelage.

"What really got me interested," Hall recalled, "was in 1950, when I won the Joe Louis Sportsman Trophy in the National Golden Gloves tournament, and I started getting calls. People started treating me like I was the heavyweight champion of the world. I had no intention of doing anything in boxing. I was just trying to make a living. But these guys were so nice and good to me, and finally talked me into going pro."

His manager was Ike Bernstein, who also had hard-punching Chicago light heavyweight contender Bob Satterfield. Satterfield's big drawback as a fighter was a glass jaw; Hall's was sensitive facial tissue. After fights, he sometimes had difficulty seeing out of his swollen eyes. A doctor told him there was nothing that could be done for it, and warned that Hall's vision might eventually become impaired if he fought more than once or twice a year.

So on that day in '53 at the Midwest Gym, Hall was just a box-maker trying to stay in shape when his life was changed by the appearance of the heavyweight champion of the world.

Rocky Marciano had won the title on September 22, 1952, by knocking out
Jersey Joe Walcott in the 13th round. The undefeated Marciano was scheduled to defend the title in a rematch with Walcott at Chicago Stadium on May 15. The champion brought three sparring partners with him to the gym, and in short order each of them went off in search of medical attention.

"Marciano had this right hand punch called 'Suzy-Q,' and he would bang up everybody's ribs," Hall said.

Looking for additional fodder, Marciano's trainer, Charley Goldman, spotted the 5' 11", 195-pound Hall and asked if he would be interested in sparring with the champion. Hall didn't hesitate before agreeing.

"I was a young man, and I wasn't even thinking that I was going to be 72 years old one day," Hall recalled with a laugh.

He wasn't even fazed when Marciano's introductory remarks cast that prospect in some doubt.

"Toxey, I don't mean any harm," said the champion who had knocked out 38 of his 42 opponents, "but everybody in the ring is my enemy. I don't pull no punches. Anybody who gets in the ring with me, even my friends, I'm knocking them out if I can."

"That was pretty nice of you to tell me that," Hall answered genially, "so I won't pull no punches, either."

Four rounds later, Hall was back in the fight game full-time.

"I love the way you work," Marciano told him. "Will you come to training camp with me?"

For the next three years, the Chicago fighter was paid $100 a week to help prepare Marciano-who knocked out Walcott in the first round of their second match-for five additional title defenses, and accompanied him on exhibitions around the country and overseas.

"I stayed with him until he retired," said Hall. "It was really a pleasure.

A pleasure, courting the dreaded Suzy-Q five days a week?

"That first time I was skeptical," admitted Hall. "But I would've got into the ring with the heavyweight champion of the world, even if I knowed he would knock me out. It was a thrill-and after that it was just like drinking water. He hit me good, but I don't remember him hurting me. One time he hit me above the eye, and it busted open."

To protect his vulnerable face, Marciano gave Hall one of the specially designed headgear the champion wore.

"Most of the sparring partners would get hurt in their rib cage and wore football pads to protect them," said Hall. "But for some reason, that was my toughest part, and it didn't bother me much.

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The one slight exception was when they were preparing for Marciano's defense against England's Don Cockell in San Francisco on May 16, 1955. Before they got into the ring to spar, Hall mentioned that the champion was carrying his right hand low and exposing his chin.

"Why don't you just hit me then?" Marciano challenged.

So, recalled Hall, "I hit him with a left hook, and down he went."

The press was there, and the incident got worldwide coverage. Marciano said nothing at the time, but the next day when they were doing roadwork together, the champion stopped and said, "Toxey, you son of a *****, you knocked me down in front of all those guys."

But Marciano wasn't really upset. "We laughed about it," Hall said. "He liked rough stuff."

Outside the ropes, Marciano treated Hall like a brother. "He was a fantastic guy," the former sparring partner said. "We got so close, like two peas in a pod. It was really a blessing to be with him."

Hall not only gained fame as the champion's chief sparring partner, but "every time somebody gave Rocky a gift, there was one for me, too. I got all kinds of sports coats and rings."

One of Hall's most prized possessions are the cufflinks he received from Marciano after golfing great Ben Hogan presented The Rock with two sets of the specially designed pieces of jewelry.

Marciano biographers have painted him as the kind of person who felt about a dollar the way Charlton Heston does about his rifle-the only way to get it away from him is to claw it from his cold, dead hand. But that's not the Marciano that Hall knew.

"He never carried no money in his pocket," Hall acknowledged. "We'd be out there shooting dice, and he'd say, 'Let me have a dollar.' But he never forgot my birthday or my wife's birthday."

Hall often received generous bonuses, he said, including checks for $1,500 at Christmas.

In addition to his sparring duties, Hall fought on the undercards of Marciano's title defenses, and he also augmented his income by taking bouts between training camps. From 1953 to '56, Hall met some of boxing's best names, such as light heavyweight champion Archie Moore and future l75-pound champion Harold Johnson, and heavyweight contenders John Holman and Bob Baker. But without Marciano's special headgear to protect his features, Hall lost as often as he won, and finished with a 13-13-4 (7) record.

His biggest victory came on November 14, 1955, when he won a decision over former heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles in Providence, Rhode Island, though afterward Hall said his head was "swole up like two heads."

 

Again, I respect your opinion, BUT in my opinion, neither one of them were Ali when it comes to overall boxing skills.

 

Sugar Ray Robinson had better overall boxing skills than most or all heavyweight champions. Doesn't mean he beats them. Size matters.

 

Fantastic conversation, keep it up guys!

Isolating some agreed upon characteristic of a fighter like speed or even punching power seems to miss the point which is the process, the real life concrete give and take of a fight over many rounds, where every giving is meanwhile suffering with what has to be received. Speed suffers with the punches, power suffers against speed.

So I wonder about this classic matchup between Ali and the Rock, and ponder which of the two would be most likely to lose or have comprimised the very strong asset he possesses, ie, lightning speed and zip in Ali's case, steady and strong slugging power in Rock's.

In many way, I believe, these two typify what is best about boxing and it is no wonder we keep coming back to Marciano and how he might fare with the other greats like Ali, much to the amusement of some.

I, who have learned much from all of you, continue to think that if we ponder which of these styles will prevail in the course of a fight, on the one hand, quickness, speed, footwork, etc, vs, on the other hand, the determined slugging and accumulating power then one of the other will most likely have to be comprimised.

I don't know (who does and we should stop with the tone that this or that will definitely happen) but I'm inclined to think that the characteristic hehascup rightfully emphasizes in Ali (speed), will tend to be more compromised than Rock's power and aggression.

Didn't the Rock prove this with his amazing record? (Of course, I don't mean to deny both fighters didn't have other qualities, I am just settling on what many think are their major assets.) And didn't Ali suffer at the hands of fighters somewhat like Marciano?

Well, with one most important caveat, if the fight is not ended by a TKO for I don't think Ali is knocking the Rock out. This depending on where that time machine Mr. Bill vividly mentions lands us for this fight. Perhaps with more watchful do-gooders in the field of boxing in our time the fight is stopped and Ali wins by TKO as many of you think.

But meanwhlle, the Rock keeps slugging it out and surely, hehascup, you have to admit the Rock is going to somehow land some punches, inside or outside. Don't you think? Remember Ali saying that the old man Marciano hit hard, his arms hurt even after the sparring, and Ali himself said, who knew more about the game of boxing you or I know, that Rock may knock him down, and possibly beat him. But as the great fighter Ali was he thought, nevertheless, he would prevail. Of course he had the confidence, he was a fighter.

So not depending on abstractions like speed timed and measured on equipment, or even the vaunted punching power (maybe measured on scientific equipment, what a laugh!), we have the concrete reality, the fight, what will be a painful matchup between these two greats. Where I believe, I say once again, Marciano's assets, his accumulating power, are less likely to suffer over the long haul than Ali's speed and fantastic ability to move.

And it would take more than one match to decide it.