Marciano's Body Frame could easily be Tua and Tyson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Apr 8, 2009.


  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    "Let me tell you something. Rocky was not that small when you meet him in real life. he had to trained down to that fine condition."- Larry Merchant

    Let me start out by saying....You dont have to be 6'1 and 77" inch reach to be able to carry extra weight. You dont need to be tall like holyfield or spinx just to be able to carry extra weight. shorter guys can put on weight too if they have the correct bonestructure.

    Some posters including one in particular believes Rocky can only be compared to men his size, and that he doesnt have the frame to carry extra weight. Of course it is only my subjective opinion, but I strongly disagree with that opinion. Think David Tua and Mike Tyson....both guys were 5'9 and 5'10 with 69" and 71" reaches, Rock was taller at 5'11 and had similiar reach. I truelly believe Rocky's bone structure was the same as these guys, I just believe rocky trained in a different with less nutrition, modern supplements and modern weight training methods. The way rocky trained in the old day, you lose mass. Rocky admitted in his biography he did not lose weights, because a weight lifter told him be careful with those if you dont know what your doing with them. Imagine if rocky was put on a great weight lifting program with modern nutriotion and maybe even supplements? He would easily put on even more muscle making him a scary hulk. If rocky were training today with todays training methods, I strongly believe his body frame would look like a combined version of Tua and Tyson. These guys did it, so can Marciano.

    I spoke with Rocky's brother Peter personally and he told me that rocky naturally weighed well over 200lb, and that it took alot out of him to keep his weight under 190lb, that by 1955 rocky could not keep it under 190lb anymore. Both he and Goody Petronelli told me if rocky were fighting today, he would fight at around 210-215lb with modern training.


    take a look at this photo
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    Here he is during training. I would guess that he is in the 190s in this picture considering he naturally weighed 210-220lb and cut from there. There is not an ounce of fat on him, he can easily add some more mass on to this frame, especially considering he is big boned like tyson and tua...he has the ability to add on mass.


    One poster he mentioned speed as being the key asset for a small heavyweight to do well against big men. I strongly disagree here, while tyson had the speed. Tua did not. I feel strength and punching power and Durability are far more important. If you have the one punch power to knock a 250lb man dead, which rocky did, than its vital. 2ndly if you have the chin to take a hard hitting 220lbers punch, which rocky did, than this is crucial. When you add a modernly trained rocky who with proper nutrion and weight training program goes up to 205-210lb, I think his chin and power will only go up. Rocky was the strongest out of all the 3 swarmers frazier and dempsey. Strength is just as important as speed because then you have the ability to keep up with the big men in the clinches and not let there size wear u out. Also Durability is huge. Tua had just punching power and Durability and he got to the top. Marciano with added mass and bulk from modern training I think those categories can only go up in his favor. One thing I find more important than speed is skill and style. Charlie Goldman built rockys whole style around defeating tall and large heavyweights. When you get low in a crouch and move your torso around in athletic angles, and duck weave slip under long punches, it makes it very tough for a tall big man to hit you with a clean punch without having him to reach down and leave himself off balance and wide open for counter punches. I believe rocky's crouch would suit him very well vs the big men. I do not believe reach is important factor. Tua and Tyson got by without reach. I feel LEVERAGE is much more key. its all about how you use your reach. Cause Rocky had a short reach, he had tremendous leverage, and when he get inside a big man, he is going to have such a huge advantage there, he was incredible at punching with full body leverage. When you have a really short reach, you are a killer on the inside. When these big men miss rocky in his crouch hes going to get inside and go to town on them. Another thing is Stamina, most big men through history did not possess good stamina or top workrate. Rocky Marciano can get into slugouts with these men and keep hammering away everywhere on there body and he just wont stop throwing punches, and he will tire them out, some of these big men will be taken to the laterr rounds and just wilt to the pressure. Stamina and workrate is MORE IMPORTANT THAN SPEED against big men if your small. outwork the big man and break him down. Perhaps the best of the superheavyweights like bowe and lennox might have his number, but thats what it would take to beat him. It would take the very best skilled powerful superheavyweights to beat him. Rocky would be a nightmare for most big heavyweights with his style.


    Interesting Stat of the day: rocky marciano during his career was 11-0 with 11 knockouts against men above 200lb

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    Tua 220lb
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    Tua 245lb


    There is no reason with modern training and enhancements he can't loook like them
     
    reznick likes this.
  2. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I dont know, both seemed much bigger through the neck and just seem skeletally broader to me.
    You may be right but I know growing up with a lot of Samoans that they are very predisposed to being physically very dense. I dont think a lot of people realise how heavyset they are as a race.
     
  3. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    I agree that Marciano could have put on mass. Most fighters from his era consumed fewer calories than are needed to compete in a sport such as boxing, or so it seems.

    I do have to say that I don't believe Marciano to be the size of Mike Tyson. Tyson looks quite a bit wider across the shoulders than Marciano does. Tua also looks to have a wider frame.
     
  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    They are wider because they weight lift and have modern nutriotion, and modern benefits. If rocky gets modern training, he would be wide like them as well. He has the bone structure of the two.
     
  5. pare

    pare Active Member Full Member

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    i thought tyson didn't touch weights until post prison, plus i heard his diet was pretty old school (need to verify this).

    plus, pictures of a 12-13 year old tyson shows he's a naturally broader man than marciano, who of course was also broad.
     
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Anyone have pictures of Rock in retirment? he looks huge standing next to floyd patterson. anyone have that pic?
     
  7. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Im pretty sure Tua was fighting as a heavyweight amateur at 16. I dont think you have been around a lot of Samoans.
    Auckland is the largest Samoan city in the world, Ive played sport and grown up with them my whole life, they develop physically early. They along with the other Polynesian races dominate junior contact sport in New Zealand.

    I dont believe Rocky had the same structure as Tua. Tua if he didnt train would go over 300lbs in a heartbeat
     
  8. Marciano Frazier

    Marciano Frazier Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think Marciano was quite as naturally big as Tua or Tyson, but certainly if he had trained like them in terms of weight-lifting and what have you, he could have been well over 200 pounds without being soft.
     
  9. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    And he will be when/if he comes back
     
  10. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Tua is a bad example as has been pointed out by many.

    The training theory though is interesting. I agree that rocky would weigh much more, similar to Tyson if he undertook the same training. The tricky question though and the one worth thinking about is would Rocky be better for it? Personally, i doubt it. I think that Tyson would be far better using Rockys training than vice versa. Nutrition advances, i can accept but i think that there is too much reliance on weightlifting to increase strength.

    It is not as if Rocky couldnt hit hard enough to knock out fighters with his old training, but with the new training, i think that while he would be bigger, it would effect his stamina and workrate which is the key to his success.
     
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  11. zadfrak

    zadfrak Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What heavyweight trained like Marciano? That's why he wasn't heavy. Who else out there since has had had that kind of pre-fight conditioning for all those months Marciano would do for his fights?
     
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  12. sauhund II

    sauhund II Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The Rock fought at that weight because it was his only chance to be sucessful. Put on another 25 pounds and his stamina and workrate will go down the drain. He was never a speed demon and that extra flab/muscle will make him slower than he already was.

    Marciano knew what he was doing and was very aware of his limitations. If he would have been able to execute his gameplan with the additional weight he obviously would have never been in the 180-190 's.

    "Modern nutrition and training " is complete bull****. Healthy professional athlete diets then and now are pretty much the same. Case in point, contemporary bodybuilders like Steve Reeves were big guys then and would be big and muscular (roids or not) today. Fact. Genetics and proper training are not rocket science, either you got it or you don't.

    Now, if you believe modern nutrion is roids , well, that is another kettle of fish. Anyway, Marciano roided up would be his own worst enemy = read above.
     
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  13. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Rocky today would probably scale 210 or so. Maybe at a stretch 215. Any more than that would be counter-productive in my opinion.

    It's worth noting that one or two fight reports of him as an amateur - where he did scale a bit over 200 - note that he appeared "soft" at that weight.

    Personally, I don't believe he has the frame to carry more than 210 (maybe 215) well.
     
  14. Privatejoker

    Privatejoker Member Full Member

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    I like you suzieq49.

    You keep saying "one poster said", when you mean me.

    But i don't understand your total undaunted worship of Marciano. I like Foreman but not that much. I don't believe Foreman beats everyone. It's Just styles make fights.

    Do you think JJW beats Joe Frazier?

    You seem to hate Foreman. You seem to overrate Jersey Joe Walcott (who was a great) to overrate Marciano (who was also great). You seem to think Jersey Joe could just beat George (ala Young), but you use the worst version of George (the 1977 version) as a basis on why George loses to JJW.

    The Walcott that lost to Maxim, Allen and Ray gets KO'd by George (you will probably still argue with that). See anyone can discredit a fighter.

    Marciano was limited even for his time, there were far better skilled heavyweights than Marciano during his time and before his time. Jack Johnson (1910-1915) was far better skilled than Marciano and weighed 205 pounds when he beat Jeffries, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling were all better skilled than Rocky. The added weight would suit them better than Rocky.

    Because you claim Rocky could weigh 210-220 doesn't mean a thing, because Rocky's style plays into a bigger more skilled Heavyweights hands. That's why Lewis would destroy Marciano, even the Douglas that beat Tyson had the style to beat Rocky.

    Dempsey (1919-1923) if weighing 206 would still be faster than Marciano. Dempsey movement was better than Marciano. Rocky was not just crude v ****ell, he looked crude v Walcott as well, the Lastarza (first fight). Even against Moore (yes i was impressed with his unreleted pressure) but he did not look great technically.

    Dempsey who fought Firpo just threw all his ability out the window and just slugged it out (e.g. Hagler v Hearns and still won) against a crude 6'2" power puncher that weighed 230 pounds. Dempsey knocked Firpo down 7 times in round one, during that time Dempsey got caught himself, it happens, no matter how crude a guy may be (Forrest v Mayorga anyone), only because Dempsey allowed it, he could of just moved but didn't. While Rocky can only fight one way, which he did very well, but he only had one way of doing it.

    Suzieq you keep bringing up that Dempsey didn't fight the black fighters when he should have, yes i agree, but if a black fighter was the champion (like Jersey Joe), Dempsey would have fought them. Remember there is a picture that exists of Dempsey with Willis signing contracts for a fight that never came off.

    Remember after Johnson no black Heavyweight got a title shot until Joe Louis.

    I know Foreman can be beaten, just not by Jersey Joe or Marciano, but according to you George loses to both.

    Now you are claiming Marciano's body frame can go up to 220 and be effective because of Tua or Tyson?

    Tyson at 13 was heavier than Rocky was in his whole career. The heaviest Rock weighed was 188 pounds v Archie Moore. Remember for his 184 pound weight Rocky was slow for his size, while Dempsey at that weight was fast. Dempsey fought sometimes at 190+.

    There is no evidence Marciano could good at 220, despite what you say. Because he weighed over 200 pounds when not training doesn't mean he could use that weight in the ring.

    Both Tua and Mike could possibly beat Marciano. Tua is naturally bigger than Rocky despite being only 5'9" and 69 inch reach. Tyson is naturally bigger than Rocky, despite being 5'10" with a 71 inch reach.

    Rock was 5'11" had a 67 inch reach and 188 pounds, his best wins coming against guys like Walcott (196 pounds), Moore (188 pounds), Charles (183 pounds).
     
  15. BoxingFanNo1

    BoxingFanNo1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Don't see it myself, genes.
    Tyson and Tua have the 'brickshithouse islander gene'
    Marciano's plain old Italian.

    Different structures to them.
     
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