Marciano's Thoughts on Sonny Liston

Someone is biased or ignorant if they do not share your Rocky worship . I have written time and again about Rocky and have called him a great fighter. It's clear to me your personalize Rocky way past rational thought. BTW, no one ever said he did not fight some tall or heavy men, just not very good ones or ones who were in their physical primes. I guess you justify that just like Shavers was not a much bigger puncher and the forty plus Moore was physically young or a terrific heavyweight. Sounds like childhood idolworship to me. Whatever. You are entitled to your opinion even if you feel others are not.

 

No I feel you were reaching to say Moore looked old in that video. The man had some of his best wins in that 57( 1 DQ and controvercial loss that was KO avenged) bout win streak leading up to Marciano. I love Archie Moore and I love JJ Walcott and Charles also was one of my favorites. Some of my other favorites are Dempsey,Louis,Duran,Benny Leonard,SRL,Henry Armstrong,Willie Pep,Lamotta,SRR,Canzaneri,Ross,Hagler,Monzon,Greb(read a lot about him) Langford but I guess we are far in opinion when it comes to Marciano if you think Shavers was a greater fighter or Tim Witherspoon for that matter.

 

How is that?

Weren't they contemporaries of Marciano?

Didn't they have two eyes?

 

Bummy, perhaps instead of insulting someone you should read more carefully. I NEVER said Shavers was a better fighter or that he would defeat Marciano. I said he was a harder puncher. I said I thought that some fighters would beat Marciano based on style and size advantage even though they were not in his class on a pound for pound basis. I place Witherspoon in this catagory. While you might not agree it is far from an outrageous claim to be cackled at as ignorance or bias.

 

Because you're disregarding all of the other comments of Marciano opponents, which all said similar things, but you're focusing on Moore and Fitgerald.

 

You are intitled to your opinion but it is in the minority of most of the posters on this board. I myself was never impressed with Witherspoon. His biggest wins were over Bruno and Gonzales and a green Frank Bruno. Witherspoon was an underachiever. He got blown out by Smith in the rematch and although I thought the Holmes fight was a close win for him Carl Williams also beat Holmes to get robbed around the same time.Light heavy Champ Spinks showed in his 1st fight with Holmes, how to beat Larry. I think M.SPINKS WAS A TOP 5 LIGHT HEAVY BUT I do not think he was as good as Ezzard or Moore as a Heavyweight but then again Spinks top lightheavy opponent was Quawi and his competition or amount of fights and experience was not near those guys.

I guess the fact that I have seen most of these guys fight does not get me stuck on an era or weight and training changes (mostly in the heavyweight division because there are no limits) I see some of the heavyweights today could compete in any era as well as the 50's, 40's 70's and 20's...some of the benifits are modern and some like tougher elements and men brought up in harder times being a benefit to toughness. Lets face it there are no time machines, so when we compare era's, we must either add or subtract when mixing era's and again this is only in the Heavyweight division and a lot of the new methods of muscle gain. The middle division is still 160lbs, welter etc. There were alway very large men but the best of them are Lewis and the Klitschko's after them it would be Valuev,Primo Carnera and Jess Willard and mabey Buddy Baer or Bowe. Joe louis was about 6"2 200+ BUT HE HAD A THIN WAISTE and was ripped, same with Dempsey. Ali acorrding to Dundee was 6"2 ( he is listed at 6"3) but I think Joe Louis would be the perfect size, only Today with weight training a big part of heavyweight training he would bulkier.

 

If I am a minority regarding my opinion on Marciano on this board is irrevelant. To call someone ignorant because they do not agree with you is (need I say it ?).

Witherspoon fought Holmes at 33 while Williams fought him at 35, a huge difference for a fighter. Witherspoon , at his best since I think we rate these guys at their best, had overwhelming advantages over Marciano in height, strength and reach. Witherspoon had an iron chin, major power with the right hand, terrific defense and good speed. He had pretty good stamina as well.

I'm the first to agree here that depending on the match up fighters from other eras could excell today. I do not think Witherspoon was a better fighter than Marciano. I also do not think Quarry was better than Monzon but I think Quarry would have destroyed him straight up as well.

 

Exactly. Pathetic backtracking "wordplay" from Nay-Sayer. Of course Moore and Fitzgerald were his contemporaries...but they weren't his only contemporaries.

 

This is really the nail in the coffin of Hegrant's argument. Its not even a matter of opinion its a matter of hard facts. Moore's accomplishments prior to and even after the Marciano fight speak for themselves. You can argue something as subjective and unmeasurable as "physical prime" or "bags under the eyes" all you want, its irrelevant to what the man proved in the ring time and time again.

Just look at ths old man knockout an all time great in the peak of his career . Save a back injury against Walcott, Johnson had never been stopped before either. Nothing remarkable about this at all.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF7wSmNaEW4[/ame]


"Progress was hard even for a fighter of Johnson’s calibre, yet it was a measure of Harold’s ability that he was also able to step up a weight class and defeat ranking heavyweights. Within two months of losing his third fight to Moore in Toledo, Johnson decisioned Clarence Henry, rated among the top ten heavies at that time, and then split a pair of decisions with that dynamite puncher, Bob Satterfield. Harold rounded off his 1952 campaign with a points victory over Nino Vales in Brooklyn.

While it is possible for a young American boxer of today to go through a whole career within a tight geographical circle, fighters of Johnson’s era constantly criss-crossed the country to get work. In 1953, Harold fought in New York, Toledo, Miami Beach, Philadelphia, Milwaukee and Hershey, posting victories over Jimmy Slade, Toxie Hall and Ezzard Charles.

When Johnson finally challenged Moore for the championship the following year, it seemed Harold was on the verge of dispersing the black cloud that had hovered over him for so long. The manner of his defeat was almost too cruel to be true and his chance of levelling the score with Archie was gone forever. "

 

:goodI see you know the facts...

 

I can see why a lot of guys ignore you . you have a way at twisting words and posts but I do have a question for you if you want to answer. How old are you?

I said you were biased or ignorant of your critsism of Moore, you said he looked like a middle aged man and I feel you were really trying to be cute. To me Moore looked like a fit tough SOB, so it was evident you were stretching for a reason. I feel you have an agenda because to me Moore did not look old, he looked fit and muscled. Now if you are in your teens I can understand that statement. Now Moore was on his best win streak ever 57 wins marred by 1 DQ and a controvercial loss to the great Harold Johnson which he avenged by a KO. Look at some of the other ATG's Moore beat and 2 # 1heavyweight Contenders, Bob Baker and Nino Valdez twice.. He KO'd Bert Whitehurst who Liston could not KO in 2 fights, beat Clarence Henry, Jimmy Bivens, Joey Maxim and more. You did not respond to that just said you thought he looked like a middle aged man. I think your age is relevant here.

By the way Monzon was 160lbs and a natural middleweight, I think Quarry would stop him as well. Marciano was a dominant Heavyweight who had some spectacular one punch KO's, a different story in fact some of the great fighters, Louis,Walcott,Moore,Charles,all attest to his power and some of the great fighters like Ali and Holmes and Dempsey say he would have been the toughest Heavyweight to fight and that list includes Foreman,Lewis,etc. I think there opinion carry's some weight.

He Grant....There are great fighters and there are good fighters...again how old are you?

 

HE_GRANT_Witherspoon was a decent Heavyweight but most of his wins were close decision and he never really rose to the occasion. The only fighter of some what quality to pressure him was Smith in the rematch and he KO'd Spoon in 1 round. It was a very weak, drug infested unacheiving era and Tim was the protoype along with Tubbs and Page. Sorry but a tough pressure puncher ( like a Tyson) would have ripped Terrible Tim a new A---ole.....Tell me which fight he impressed you with SOOO much...dont tell me Bruno and Gonzales

 

The only fighter that pressured him, please. Spoon pounded the daylights out of Smith in their first bout, as painful a one sided beating as I had seen in many a bout at that time. The shots Smith took were amazing and a testiment to his chin that he survived.

IN the rematch, Smith was a last minute replacement for Tubbs who failed a drug test. Spoon was undertrained, over confident, bone dry and was taken by surprise when Bonecrusher went kamakazi in round one at the opening bell and almost immediately tagged him with a huge shot. Now Bonecrusher was not named Bonecrusher for nothing. He was a huge puncher, far bigger, far stronger and far harder hitting than anyone Rocky ever fought. He caught Witherspoon and floored him and basically mugged him at that point. Tim went down and got up three times, more off balance than seriously hurt, and the fight was stopped on NY's three knockdown rule. If they fought twenty times again that would likely never happen. However it did happen and shows why Witherspoon was not the fighter he could have been with all his talents. However, he had far more than enough to handle Rocky based on styles and size.

He impressed me through out his entiree career ... again he fought much faster, stronger , harder hitting men than Marciano. He had the skills and ability.

Again I ask, was Marciano a better pound for pound fighter than Monzon? Rocky fighting a Witherspoon is similiar to Monzon fighting a Quarry. Who would pick Monzon ? Likely no one . Why? Giving up too much size, strength, ect ... 9 out of ten times it plays out this way unless the smaller man has a particular skill set that maximizes *****s in the larger mans armor such as speed and power v.s. a weak chin ( Louis v.s. Wlad as an example) . However, Rocy was short, not fast, not larger heavyweight strong, had a terribly short reach and not a great defense (Look at his face after the bouts, the best indicator) and had no choice but to fight aggressive. He matches up terribly against bigger, stronger men with skills that can punch back harder.

The man was a great fighter without question. However, the romanticizing is too much.

 

Quarry would have his way with Witherspoon or Smith. How a career middleweight would do against him is irrelavant to Marciano however.

Quarry effortlessly stops the Ron Lyle express:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dMaf97Decs[/ame]

 

Are you new to this board or have you just not been paying attention?