Marciano's Thoughts on Sonny Liston

Wasn't too long ago when a 205 pound Holyfield was going toe to toe with Riddick Bowe. A 235 6'5 Riddick Bowe. Holyfield wasn't exactly ever a huge puncher, either.

 

Seamus: Correct.

Dezbeast: Because unlike you I see a difference between Matciano and Frazier. Start with twenty pounds of muscle on Frazier's side. Joe was much faster and much harder to hit. He was also proven against Ali. who even at 92% was a very good sized heavyweight and light years better than anyone Marciano ever fought, even Rex Layne.

Peter again, we are talking about different skill sets here not just size. Holyfield was much bigger, much faster, at least as strong, a multi-facited fighter, far more cut resistant, far better defensively and has a PROVEN chin against huge punchers. He even at 205 was 20 pounds more than Marciano with a 78" reach.

 

come on seamus holyfield was enhanced. what ever way you look at it he weighed 179lb for his first fight. james toney weighed 165lb for his first fight. roy jones, etc etc. frazier was no bigger than rocky he peaked at 9lb more than rockys peak weight and rocky was stick thin frazier never was, he was prety "buxom" by comparison..he always had 9lb spare.
thats not knocking anyone its just different training, marciano did a lot of cardio work and did way more running as was the trend then. frazier did way more sparring as was the phily way.
the majority of todays guys have the same frame only they bulk up now. john ruiz was contracted to weigh lower against jones and he had no problem making it just like most of todats guys. think of all the weights shannon briggs has weighed? talk about yo yo diets.
old fighters wernt intrested in bulking up. boxers were only intrested in training to achieve the best workrate, with smaller gloves power was not a problem. they didnt have video to study they worked hard and turned up for work. nobody trained to neutralise the other guy, the actual weight was never a strategy in itself.

 

LMAO, I leave....6 months later i come back and the Marciano bashing is still at its peak. God, what did the guy ever do to deserve such harsh criticism and hatred from bashers? I swear, and I mean this from the heart....I believe many people are envy of Rocky Marciano.

Now I see why some of the better posters here don't even bother responding to this Marciano hate. I will not even bother to respond anymore. Why? Because I will not sink to their level, and I know I am right. I know most people in the boxing community agree with my side.

ps Sonny Liston would clearly beat Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko. Anyone who wants to start raving about that let me know.

 

Stumpy Huh? Where is this "Stumpiness" you are preaching about?

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Rocky was quite skinny. He was very toned, but he ran 15 miles a day with no weight draining. That kind of working out does nothing but eat your muscle away. If rocky cuts down 10 miles a day on his running, and throws in weight training along with better nutrition/supplements...he could easily go from 188 to 205 no problem. I honestly do not see why he cannot come into the ring at a more muscular 205lb like joe frazier did. Rocky was big boned, he naturally weighed well over 200lb when he was not fighting. It would not be a serious adjustment like some people here make it out to be.


That is my last post..I am finished.


ps Liston easily beats Lennox and Vitali

 

Wow. Complementing Marciano, ranking extremely high pound for pound is not enough praise lofted upon his Atlas like shoulders in these parts.

And no, I don't give Liston much of a chance against Lewis.

 

If you read my post, I said that at 210 or so he would be stumpy. Rocky was short of limb and long of torso. There is no getting around that. He was a finely tuned athlete at 180 or so. Put thirty pounds on him and he's less mobile, less elusive with still no range.


If you only care to read posts as blind challenges to the great Marciano hegemony and refuse to consider that there may be more nuance than the "He Great/He Horrible" dualism, then I suggest to you that the General Forum is open.

 

Well, I would venture to say picking the likes of Lamon Brewster, Oliver McCall, and Ray Mercer to defeat him are a slap in the face to his legacy.

 

Come on a White Heavyweight cant be that good and an Italian...you remember Roky Balboa, he lost to Apollo Creed

 

Well, now your getting ahead of yourself. Rocky was typically around 185-190lb in most of his major fights. Not 180lb. I estimated him coming into the ring at 205lb. So that makes it only a 17lb jump, not a 30lb jump like you imply. Honestly, if he cuts down on the long distance running, picks up the weights, eats better nutrition/supplements...why can he not go up 17 pounds(especially when his natural weight is already around that area)

 

Lennox Lewis did not like fighters who jabbed back at him. Bruno, Mercer gave him fits. Liston would totally take lennox off his rythm with his jab. Add in Liston's two fisted power and finishing ability coped with Lennox's average chin, and it spells doom for Lennox.

 

Seamus, you make some good points but I put on 40 lbs of Muscle and then ran it down to get cut, then I added 35lbs of pullups sit ups,push ups and wall weights
and the only thing that got bigger was my arms,legs and shoulders but my face is the same but my Body Muscle is larger. I was stronger with the muscle but when I incorporated the running again I was quicker more mobile and I think I hit just as hard. The more muscled version was stronger at pushing,wrestling but slower. I think with a good trainer like Macky Shilstone, Marciano could add muscle and gain 40 LBS like Holyfield,Moorer,Spinks and it would help him with strength vs the bigger boys today but Marciano had ample enough power at 188lbs. James Toney from 160 and 5"10 went to 238lbs on a 5"10 frame(78lbs) but we know he did not hire Makey Shillstone, he just ate a lot of corn-dogs.....On a 5"11 frame and the proper weight training program, Marciano would still be cut at 225lbs but may look more like Tyson than Marciano...Remember Iron Mike weighed under 200 when he lost to Tillman for the Olympic finals and put on 18lbs of Muscle. He looked Bigger not stumpy. I think the difference is if you add the weight like Toney or you put in on like Tyson and Evander, Spinks and Moorer

That type of muscle gain was not needed or available in the 50's but If Marciano was fighting today those options would be available.

 

Yea as long as Holmes avoid every solid puncher and BEST challenge Thomas,Tate,Dokes,Page,Coetzee and never rematched Weaver(who became a champ and Witherspoon, Williams...Holmes never unified the title...Holmes had a Half a jockstrap

 

Exactly how long after the weigh in was the fight in his day? A week?

Look, re-read my posts, I am not picking Lamon Brewster or Oliver McCal over him, just saying guys like that, with durability and a big time punch, would provide a bad set of problems for Marciano. I am not saying, like some, Marciano would be embarrassed in the ring by the modern super-heavies, though that could happen at some point a la Lewis-Tua. I am saying did he fight even the top-10 today, top to bottom, he would not have that sterling record for which he is given so much (re:too much) credit.