Marciano's Thoughts on Sonny Liston

Which of them do you think that he should not have fought, and why?

 

marciano fought the same guys evry champ fought on the way up. george formen fought guys who wer 1-14 in the year before winning the title, liston never beat 1unbeaten opponent...you can attack anyone if you use the same microscope that is only applied when studing rocks career.
another thing (and this is no excuse or apology just a fact) -a lot of people say "pah, this guy rock fought already lost 20 fights!" but dont say the same guy won 50 fights, thats a good record!

to get into the ratings then you had to beat a rated guy. often the only unrated guys rated conteders fought were guys good enough to fight at the garden. in later years unbeaten prospects stopped fighting each other. managers wanted to ochestrate impresive records with minimum risk. so you could have bumbeaters rated simply because they have more wins than the guy at #10. not so in rocks day.

in those days of one topten the contenders fought each other over and over to stay busy. their records dont read like more recent contenders because they fought more competative fights. magazines would call a contender worthy if he was unbeaten this season.

 

That's apparently the guy's mantra. Even when presented with a bevy of facts, he merely repeats the bum, stiff, tomato can **** ad nauseum. Not very interesting dialogue to say the least.

 

Very true and lets face it how many fighter can take a beating like the blasting Moore took from Rocky and be the same. Moore got up but was sent down time and time again. It was a horific beating.

 

Rocky definately went up against a better, fresher version of Moore. I think it can be argued Moore was at his peak against the Rock.

 

He was on his best win streak ever 57 fights marred by a DQ and a controvesial loss to Harold Johnson who heat beat 3 times, last one a TKO. Moore also beat Nino Valdez 2 times UD, Bert Whitehurst by KO, KO'd Big Heavy Bob Baker,also beatBob Satterfield KO3, beat Maxim UD,Olsen KO KO'd Jimmy Bivens 2 times, Beat 32-3 Clarence Henry, Ko'd 76-7 Alberto Lovell in 1, Ko'd Phil Muscato,Karel Sys 98-12, Abel Cestac, Ko'd Oakland Billy Smith, Embrell Davidson and Ted Lowry by UD and throw in Jimmy Slade...This was the time Moore put it all together

 

Frazier wasn't stronger on the inside. Frazier wasn't that much harder to hit, especially not with the uppercut. In fact, the opposite. Frazier had a faster footspeed and pace, but Marciano has superior stamina, punching power, and durability.

So there are pros and cons.

To think Marciano has no chance with a Klitiscko because of size and having lesser skills. While thinking Frazier can do it because he's so much better and bigger takes some form of a leap from reality. Because Frazier isn't better than Rocky at everything, and Frazier is massively undersized against both Klits and Lewis still, too.

You do the same thing with Dempsey by the way.

Guess what, Marciano beats both Frazier and Dempsey too. He sure as hell never slipped up like either of them in his career.

And 20 pounds more Marciano? What a freaking laugh. Everyone knows Frazier physique wasn't awesome. And he clearly had a little bit of extra puffiness to his figure than Marciano. You're not objective here, and not being realistic.

 

Self-ownage.

 

atsch

This is getting sad.

 

So who do you have on this list of competitors that Rocky should have fought instead of the 'no-hopers' you mention?

Those "BUMs, STIFFs, Tomato Cans, and NO HOPERs" were the men who had earned the right to fight Rocky becuase they had won elimination bouts against all other opposition.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Rocky fight Valdez instead of Cockell (to fight the number 1 instead of the number 2 competitor) but that's about the only instance where he fought a disappointing opponent, relatively speaking.

Every other challenger was rated number 1, Cockell was number 2....that's pretty darned impressive!

Rocky could only fight the best talent that was out there in his era, and he did it better than most other champions.

 

Rocky threads are fun because he brings out a near tribal response from some of his admirers. You cannot criticize the man , like he was heavily in his own day , without antagonizing wrath. There is no other fighter that I have ever seen with this sort of following. It does not even matter if you called him great, which I have. Either he leaps tall buildings, ect., or you have a vindetta. INteresting, as I have spent much time with his nephew Peter and the family and they have a much more pragmatic take on the man. Whatever.

Interesting the ancient Archie was great going into the Marciano bout but damaged and distracted goods against Patterson, despite the fact that he won 11 fights between the two bouts ? Moore was never the same after the beating Rocky gave him but fine despite the 100 plus bouts and multiple brutal KO losses he had absorbed ( see Charles and Morrow) along the way prior to the bout with Rocky ? The ko loss to Charles is considered one of the most brutal ko's ever by those who saw it and newspaper coverage. Archie was prety resilient.



Whatever, this post has run and run. I'd like to cut to the chase by have the following posters put their names on the line. I would like

Bummy
Prince
GreatA
Janitor
Dezbeast
Chaney
McVey

to simply say where they rank Rocky in their all time heavyweight rankings,period. I will start. He is not in my top 15. Possibly 15 - 20. That being said I do believe that he was a great fighter.

Next?

 

I wouldn't say Archie was damaged but I do believe he was distracted by out of the ring troubles. Didn't Moore later say that it was his very worst performance of all?

 

Moore put up a sterling effort ,but said himself that his legs were gone by the time he fought Marciano

 

His legs were good enough to KO #1 Heavyweight contender Bob Baker and he owned Nino Valdez in 2 fights, also beat Clarence Henry and ATG Harold Johnson by TKO and throw in Bert Whitehurst ( who Archie KO'd and Liston could not)....I think a lot of fighter that had to fight Marciano may say there Legs were gone or like many have said he just kept coming.

I am sure the beating was a very bad one, Is high in my list of beat downs. A beatdown takes a lot out of a fighter but Archie still went on to gather up a 38-4-1 record after the Marciano fight but mostly in the lightheavy division. Archie primed about 190 and around the Bob Baker KO IMO

 

Did he own Valdez twice ? Is this fight on tape because after one of them Valdez was crying robbery. I have not seen either. How close were the fights?