1. Lewis 2. Tyson 3. Holmes 4. Ali 5. Holyfield 6. Liston 7. Foreman 8. Frazier 9. Louis 10. Johnson Interesting, very bold. Johnson at #10 with that criteria is quite a final pick. Ali at #4 and Lewis at #1 (Considering him being a Heavyweight fighter that has the worst losses on his resume among the greatest of Heavyweight championship is quite ironic, and dare I say very faith-driven. I like the Holyfield pick. A very well-rounded fighter at his best that deals with a lot of styles. To you, these are fighters at their very best. I guess this gives Lewis a pass in H2H fantasy land. Ali at #4 is very telling. Considering Holmes is above him when Ali had stronger legs, was better built, had a better chin, better stamina, and superior ring IQ, intangibles, and speed. Holmes has more power and a better left jab, though. Technically, he's better, too. I've always wanted to make an H2H top 10 HW list. I should work on mine. Can't deny your honesty. As a poster, it makes you a fresh of breath air. Always appreciated.
You have always been civil toward me Pete, dispite our differing opinions. I am thankful for that. Some tend to get personal if they disagree with what I posted.
You're a good poster because of your honesty. I'm not sure, but if there was an award for the most honest poster (Meaning a poster that is genuine and with zero ulterior motives) then you might win the award. That doesn't mean you're right, though. I remember how you went in-depth with that analysis. I like how you were brave in rating Louis. And I do think that he isn't a top 2-3 HW H2H. At least, in all likelyhood. Curious on two things. I forgot how far back Rocky was. I believe he was around 11-14? And, how far back are the Klits to that list? Have you evaluated them and entered them into the equation? Or are you waiting for them to retire...?
Oh what I did was basically only rated the consensus greats. If I included everybody, I'd be laughed off of this whole forum, because Ali may not make it in the top ten and someone like Marciano wouldn't make it in the top 20. I think both Klitschkos would make top 10 however, though I think Vitaly loses to Ali for stylistic reasons.
It was generally said to be a decisive victory for Moore in a very exciting brawl, nearly flooring the Cuban early and closing the fight strong. The Mongoose came in heavier than usual for the fight but it was still a well regarded performance. Read other articles that described Valdez as getting busted up pretty good with an eye closed by the end of the fight. San Bernardino Sun, Sunday, May 8, 1955) By Jerry Boyd ........... Fortunately for those who paid their way in the fight was infinitely better than the elements surrounding it. It seemed almost weird to be watching a fight right out in the broad daylight, like it was in the old days, but it was an enjoyable experience. Moore, a little slower at 196 1/2 than he has been, has tremendous power in his big, thick arms. Valdes is a fair boxer with a good left jab and a strong right when he wants to use it. He caught Moore with an overhead right that buckled Archie's knees in the third round, but Moore countered with a vicious left hook that almost floored the big Cuban. Valdes seldom used his right after that. I scored the fight exactly as did Jimmy Braddock, referee and sole judge -- eight for Moore, five for Valdes and two even. Braddock took away a round from each for low blows, but most observers thought Moore shouold have been penalized two rounds, at least. Valdes could have won with a strong finish. The 12th round was his best, and he appeared to be getting stronger while Moore looked tired, winded and groggy. I thought old age had finally caught up with Archie. He surprised everyone by turning on the steam in the final three and won going away. At 38, Moore is an even more remarkable physical specimen than was Jersey Joe Walcott, who held the heavyweight title at the same age. Moore was flabby and fat, but he has great endurance. I don't think Bobo Olson can take him, although Marciano should be able to if and when Archie ever gets a crack at the heavyweight title.
Okay, that's just crazy talk. I guess you vehemently believe in the evolution and progression of boxing.
Ah, here is another article on the subject: ARCHIE MOORE NEARS HEAVY TITLE SHOT (United Press, Tuesday, May 3, 1955) LAS VEGAS, Nev. -- Light heavyweight champion Archie Moore established himself as the top contender for the world heavyweight crown Monday night by battering big Nino Valdes of Cuba half blind to win a 15- round decision. Referee James Braddock, former heavyweight champion and sole judge of the bout, favored 38-year- old Moore on rounds, 8-5-2. It was an excellent fight in which Moore's superior speed and snap in his punches beat the tall Cuban, who had been generally rated top contender for the heavy title. The bout was staged before a crowd of 10,800 in Cashman Field as the sun was setting. A gate of $102,678 was registered. The twilight fight was the most important boxing contest ever held in Las Vegas. Although Moore weighed 196 1/2 pounds, the heaviest of his career, he appeared much faster than 30-year-old Valdes, who is somewhat awkward. Valdes packed 209 1/4 pounds on his six-foot-three frame. There were no knockdowns in this battle between two good punchers, but the effects of their blows resulted in Valdes' left eye being swollen tightly shut in the 13th round. Moore was bleeding from the nose and lower lip at the finish and his left eye was swollen -- but he could see very well. In the dressing room, Moore said, "Valdes died in the last three rounds." Because of his victory over the number-one heavy contender, Moore will demand a heavy title shot at the winner of the Rocky Marciano-Don Cockell championship bout at San Francisco on May 16. "If I can't get that shot, I'll defend my own title against Bobo Olson," he said. Despite his 196 1/2 pounds, the mustachioed battler said he was sure he could pare down to the 175-pound limit for a defense. Archie and big Nino engaged in a very rough brawl, and each dropped several low blows during the slugging. Accordingly, Referee Braddock penalized each one round. He took the fifth from Moore and the 11th from Valdes on fouls. It was such an excellent bout that many of the fans thought Valdes had won. Some of them began throwing cushions into the ring. But announcer Al Schenk, well known New York comedian, ordered the throwing stopped "lest you injure someone seriously." And there was no more cushion-tossing. ___________________________
It will take too long to explain in detail. I may come across as a simpleton on this board, but I'm really not. I just try to keep things simple so people could understand me. Because whenever I post something with even a little detail, it seems to go over their heads. I would have to right a book in order to explain my H2H system in detail. I'll just say I pay close attention to the science that's involved that causes things to happen in the ring.
Prince, you are extremely close to breaking our gentleman's agrement on civility, obviously feeling empowered by the pack mentaliy on this thread, which means absolutely nothing to me. Let's see if your word has any value. If not, that's fine too . Dezbeast, thank you. I still have not sen Marciano all time heavyweight ranking rom the others ...
I don't get this. Taken as a participant in the heavyweight division he is definitely great, beat everyone important during his somewhat brief reign. However, head to head, I don't think he rates as high as I truly believe the division has outgrown sub 200 pound, and certainly sub-190 pound, fighters. However, as a 185 pound fighter, in a pound for pound sense, he rates remarkably high. There are less than a half dozen fighters under 200 pounds who I would even entertain a chance of beating him and not one who I would lay money on to beat him.
When I evaluate head to head matches, I realize there are no time machines so If I took a fighter like Tyson and had him fight Walcott, It would be in one era or the other. If Tyson fought in the 50's he would have to be more concerned about being fit for the 15 rd limit(Tyson only once stopped a man after the 8th rd, Lennox Lewis never did) and less about muscle gain. If I brought Walcott to the 90's he could put on some weight and the trainers recommended more of a weight schedule. So when I do a head to head comparison, I try and be fair, switch era's and blend era's. I did a list a while ago and am revamping a system of rankings by a, b and c and d because I have had trouble fitting so many good fighters into a top 15, but its obvious that you want to know where I rate Marciano and attack my opinion rather than give me the list I asked you for, He Grant I can assure you I am a big fan of a few fighters of every decade have favorites in each but in the Heavyweight division of my a rated fighter ATG's Ali, Louis and Marciano fit into my A box top 1-3-5 I have few others that I am mulling over Marciano is one of my favorite fighters. I love the way he made his size and rhythm breaking style work for him. He beat quick fighters to the punch because of his odd angles, awkward execution that were well timed. Marciano was also the master of the 6inch power shot 2nd only to Joe Louis ( who was more of a combo puncher. I do not think he would have a problem gaining muscle for the New 12 rd limit and I don't think he would be lacking power to compete with any era. One of the fighters today who may have top power other than Vlad is Haye but he is still untested but I was impressed with the last rd hook vs Valuev. He Grant If you want to criticize others opinion with disrespect as I have seen you do, I think that is childish and I will not respond to you. I have my opinions that I am fixed on and you have yours. I see you rate Tim Witherspoon in your top10- 15 and to me that is a complete joke but to each his own. That being said there are certain fighters that we will never see again in our lifetime We will never see a experienced master like Willie Pep with over 200 fights sometimes fighting once a week. We will never see another Archie Moore with don't quote me over 160 somewhat KO's, who dominated the light heavy and Heavyweight division in the 50's We will never see another Ray Robinson who was 128-1-2 before the1st Turpin fight Joe Louis to me was the perfect Heavyweight and he is my #1, he fought every size shape and color and he fought the best of his day. He never shunned a fighter a rematch after a tough fight. He had 25 defenses and he fought all his # 1 contenders. He was the sole Heavyweight Champ. Never see a fighter like Harry Greb( who I can only tell by his record of fighters I did see on film, who fought and beat some of the greatest fighters in 2 divisions, Tunney, etc. I have been watching Boxing since the 60's and have family and friends that was deep into boxing and full of first hand opinions and facts. I have seen so called experts agree with me and disagree but I have seen the experts wrong and I have been wrong. Other fighter I am Big on Charles Walcott Moore SRR SRL Greb Monzon Hagler PEP Olivares Ketchel Saol Mamby Ken Buchanan Roberto Duran Lamotta Basilio Louis Ali Frazier Lewis Holyfield ....still not retired Tyson Tiger Giardello Mickey Walker Henry Armstrong Gene Tunney Jack Johnson Jim Jeffries Billy Conn Michael Spinks Benny Leonard Barney Ross Tony Canzonari George Foreman Chavez Quawi Maxim Harold Johnson Benitez Napoles Langford Bob Foster Aron Pryor Alex Aguello for excitement Matthew Saad Muhamad Arturo Gatti Graziano Zale Satterfield Mike Weaver Mancini There are many others but this is off my head I am not afraid of my opinions but when I talk to people face to face I give respect and demand respect and I am not a fan of Childish mockery because of a difference of opinion. I have respect for my credentials and respect others and have an open mind but If I feel strong about something my opinion is just as good as the next guy. That being said I am kind of done with this subject
