Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

sdsfinest22 · Nov 14, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

You are such a hardcore *****, calling me a ******* despite the fact I had Marquez up in all 3 fights and would bet my life I've watched his career far more closely than you have. Astounding.

Why are you showing images of a poorly conditioned Marquez-a natural counter-puncher- acting as the aggressor to gauge how Marquez would do? :huh

Oh wait that's right, you view boxing through a pigenholed viewpoint that only the most dedicated Mayweather nuthugger could use. It's the only explanation for denying the fact Marquez's stylistically lateral footwork is essential to countering Pacquiao's aggression.

You floor me MW you really do.
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LMFAO:rofl:rofl:rofl FIRST HE WAS JUST THE LW CHAMP (AND NUMBER 2 I N THE WORLD) MOVING UP AND NOW HE WAS "NOT CONDITIONED"..

EXCUSES BRO..GET RID OF EM...NOW U GOT THE TRUTH....FLOYD BEAT THE #2 LB FOR LB FIGHTER IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME..:deal HE DID IT AND MADE IT LOOK THAT EASY:deal

HE ALSO MADE THE #3 IN THE WORLD SHANE MOSLEY LOOK WORSE THAN PAC MADE THE #13 IN THE WORLD SHANE MOSLEY...

SOURCE IS ALL RING MAGAZINE FOR RANKINGS (LEGIT!):deal

sdsfinest22 · Nov 14, 2011

Leon said: ↑

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He also did a great job of pivoting and switching angles after every potshot in the Marquez fight. It was used frequently against Juan due to the respect for Juan's countering skills.

2- wait, what do you think emmanuel tries if he doesn't try to pressure Floyd? his coach roach has been consistently talking about how they would try to pressure Floyd

3- he can potshot and pivot to change angles too

4- It's a good point that Floyd could have done better against some of his opponents had he use more lateral movement. It's a style thing. Floyd doesn't use it as often as Juan.
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GOOD POST:thumbsup

FLOYD WILL BE ABLE TO LAND COUNTER RIGHTS ALL DAY..

PAC AND HIS "AMATUER HOOKING" WILL LEAVE HIM LAID OUT IF NOT SHUT EYES (REF STOPS IT)...

FLOYD WILL BE ABLE TO COME OVER PAC'S SHORT JAB TOO:good...

THE VIDEO EXPLAINS A LOT THOUGH..PAC FANS TAKE NOTE TO THE VIDEO:deal

bahobilat · Nov 14, 2011

sdsfinest22 said: ↑

LMFAO:rofl:rofl:rofl FIRST HE WAS JUST THE LW CHAMP (AND NUMBER 2 I N THE WORLD) MOVING UP AND NOW HE WAS "NOT CONDITIONED"..

EXCUSES BRO..GET RID OF EM...NOW U GOT THE TRUTH....FLOYD BEAT THE #2 LB FOR LB FIGHTER IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME..:deal HE DID IT AND MADE IT LOOK THAT EASY:deal

HE ALSO MADE THE #3 IN THE WORLD SHANE MOSLEY LOOK WORSE THAN PAC MADE THE #13 IN THE WORLD SHANE MOSLEY...

SOURCE IS ALL RING MAGAZINE FOR RANKINGS (LEGIT!):deal
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all caps, does not increase the size of your brain. :yep

Don't Sleep · Nov 14, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

This is a bit awkward for me as a Marquez fan, but hear me out. I feel that people are discrediting Marquez's win by equating him to Mayweather and basically generalizing with the concept that Manny would get beaten by any elite counter-puncher, including Floyd, by default. I have to say that people are harshly ignoring the nuances of the game by continually equating Marquez and Floyd without looking at the subtle but absolutely key aspects of their tactical profiles.

They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.

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Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows. I can point to the De La Hoya fight (which I thought he won) for evidence of this habit. De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.

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This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.
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This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

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Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach. Floyd can counter for 3 rounds and then come forward for 7, while Marquez can switch between momentary aggressor and counter-puncher several times within the same round.

Mayweather's great ability still gives him a logical avenue for victory- but don't think for a second that Pacquiao's own skills and physical gifts are a puzzle easily solved by a majority of elite boxers that necessarily bunch both Mayweather and Marquez together.

Styles (NOT labels) make fights, and Marquez and Mayweather are nearly night and day when it comes to applying their craft.
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Spot on anaysis. You know your s--t.

Redondo5 · Nov 14, 2011

Top post and agree with almost everything you pit down.

Although I still think Mayweather will beat pacquiao, it is likely PAC will catch Mayweather at least once with a big shot. Also, Mayweather can pivot really well and if he can time pacs lunges he could hurt him.

Nacho was right, that this more tamed and disciplined PAC is easier to read than that wild cat he was before.

LancsTerrible · Nov 14, 2011

Enjoyed reading your posts Bo and Leon.

sdsfinest22 · Nov 14, 2011

bahobilat said: ↑

all caps, does not increase the size of your brain. :yep
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typical *******..always focusing on insulting the poster instead of the debate at hand:bart

try again dummy..i can not have a brain and all that..my argument still stands and its clear u can't fuk with it:deal

*******s ignore facts and post $hit like this...u gonna talk $hit then keep it boxing oriented dummy:deal

salty trunks · Nov 14, 2011

Yes but what Marquez did was very basic in the style. Mayweather would only have to see what Marquez did to copy it. Manny also showed little ability of how to handle it almost lost besides coming forward. Its not as technical as you think, its actually very basic.

Move to your left, counter all his jabs, keep moving to the left. It wasnt very complicated counterpunching. You cant compare a fight where Floyd had less reach. Fighting a shorter guy like Manny will only make it easier for Floyd to maintain distance and counter his shots.

Don't Sleep · Nov 14, 2011

caneman said: ↑

Great well thought out post complete with video examples. I've said it all along, Floyd is not better than JMM in all departments. JMM counters in bunches to match Pac punch for punch. Floyd counters in single shots and then runs back on defense. They are different fighters.
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Good point. Also Floyd doesn't like to get hit (which is smart) whereas Marquez is willing to risk getting caught with shots to land his own.

sdsfinest22 · Nov 14, 2011

Floyd will be able to land counter right hands over Pac's short jab all night-

When Pac lunges in Floyd will catch him with quick 1-2's and back to the "shell."

Pac will be hit more than he got hit by JMM and will find himself handcuffed at times.

Floyd's longer reach will control Pacquiao as will his much better footwork...

FLOYD KO PAC 7 MAYBE 8 ROUNDS..EASY FIGHT-PAC EXPOSES HIMSELF TOO MUCH...

U CLOWNS KEEP LOOKING AT MAYWEATHER AND JMM STYLE...IT'S PAC'S STYLE THAT IS EASY FOR BOTH FIGHTERS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.

PACQUIAO THROWS "AMATUER HOOKS" TO SHOW YOU HOW SLOPPY HE CAN BE AT TIMES...A WORLD CLASS FIGHTER, SUCH AS MARQUEZ OR FLOYD MAYWEATHER JR, WILL SHOW THIS SLOPPINESS AND EXPOSE IT BY HITTING HIM IN HIS JAW (AIMING FOR THE NECK) WITH RIGHT HANDS. THESE AMATUER HOOKS WILL BE SHOWCASED IN PAC-MAYWEATHER DUE TO MAYWEATHER BEING ABLE TO KEEP HIS TEMPO, AND PAC BECOMING DESPERATE, YET STILL HITTING AIR.

bandido · Nov 14, 2011

LancsTerrible said: ↑

Enjoyed reading your posts Bo and Leon.
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Those were quality posts. Some idiots like SDS and other *****s and *******s just can't help but ruin good threads like this.

JohnAnthony · Nov 14, 2011

great post. The key for me is the way marques punishes you on the inside with brutal combos that are powerful and accurate, meaning manny didn't want to be stuck on the inside with him.

With mayweather the danger is not there on the inside. He has good inside game, tying up, pot shotting etc. But he doesn't punish like marquez does. That makes manny hesitant about getting in too close.

MichiganWarrior · Nov 14, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

=
Why are you showing images of a poorly conditioned Marquez-a natural counter-puncher- acting as the aggressor to gauge how Marquez would do? :huh
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How is Marquez gettng off first hear different then the two punch combination he landed on Pacquiao in the clip?

Oh and poorly conditioned? He threw over 100 more punches against floyd then he did against Pac.

explanation for denying the fact Marquez's stylistically lateral footwork is essential to countering Pacquiao's aggression.
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And if you watch the Hatton fight Floyd used lateral movement and knocked Hatton out doing so. To believe Floyd cant use lateral movement is an admission on your part that you've only been watching boxing the last 3 years.

Stop making excuses because I destroyed your argument again loser. :yep

MichiganWarrior · Nov 14, 2011

n

Bogotazo said: ↑

Good points.

2-DLH had a considerable size advantage, but he didn't exactly use it too much. He pressed Mayweather with unimpressive assaults and was still able to neutralize him somewhat.
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Oscar size was a huge factor. His weight was a hug factor. His JAB, you know what a JAB is dont you, was a huge factor. Comparing Oscar to Manny is the stupidest comparison I ever heard. Comparing a guy with a noticeable size advantage over Floyd to a guy with no size advantage infact Floyd has the size advantage is nonsense. Not to mention Oscar had a JAB. JAB. JAB. JAB. JAB. Let me reiterate. JAB!:rofl

Hatton, while losing every round, was able to make Floyd fight his fight and use a series of quick foot movements to close the distance without Floyd being able to work while changing the angle.
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Floyd entire gameplan was for Hatton to walk into his straight right, then wrap him up. The only thing that surprised Mayweather as he said in the press conference was that Hatton lasted so long taking flush counters. When Floyd wanted to employ lateral movement he did. He fact he knocked out Hatton going backwards and stepping to the side. Skill that Marquez does not nor ever hopes to have.

Pac's jab isn't the key to this fight anyway, and Roach has stated this.
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So Pac is going to rush in and get caught with punches like Hatton was? Or is he going to try and box Mayweather? :rofl

4- Again, Floyd can take control of the center, but it's rare that he changes the angle in an exchange and fires from the sides of his mislead opponent.
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You dont even know what you're watching. Marquez was catching Pac from weird angles because of PAcquiao charging in with his shitty footwork.

The majority of the fight Marquez was taking a step back every time Pac took a step forward, using Pacs aggression against him. He wasnt even trading punches. He was either getting off first ro responding to Pacquiao's shots. AS to why the fight was less exciting then the other ones. The pace was far more measured.

Please show any sequence of the fight where Marquez stood in the middle of the ring with Pacquiao and exchanged punches while merely stepping to the side.

It didnt happen.
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MichiganWarrior · Nov 14, 2011

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Marquez gets off first. Doesnt exchange. Rolls Pacquiao's undisciplined combination, and moves out of the way, and easily dodges Pacs retaliation.

How is this different then what Mayweather would do. You know instead Mayweather catching Pac's shots on his arms and gloves and popping him in the mouth when he comes in wild?

THis just in *******s. Marquez isnt known for his defense.

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Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

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