Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

rodney · Nov 17, 2011

Pac is ALL HYPE.
He doesnt even give Floyd a good fight.
Remember Floyd beat JMM every round and knocked him down.

PBF24 · Nov 17, 2011

At the end of the day, I think Floyd would still get the job done. JMM can counter-punches with multiple punches land, and then he won't land anything effective for the rest remaining minutes of the round. Floyd can counter-punches with 1-2 quick punches for a whole round, and still end up landing just as much punches as JMM even though he won't throw as many combos. At the end of the day, they both are great counter-punchers in their own ways, and i wouldn't say one is better than the other.

PBF24 · Nov 17, 2011

eko718 said: ↑

Very good points and I agree. Due to the reflexive nature of his counter punching and his recent desire to be the aggressor, Floyd often finds himself flatfooted, which is in fact why Mosley was able to catch him in their fight. Nevertheless, it doesn't imply that Manny would be able to land anything substantial. One thing Floyd can do that Marquez can't necessarily is sit in the pocket and still avoid 75% of the punches his opponent throws. Also, he controls distance well, and seldom stands flatfooted in front of an opponent within punching range. Mosely had the reach to get to Floyd, and I think that's an important factor.

In some ways I think Marquez is a more dangerous counter puncher than Floyd. It usually takes Floyd some rounds to time his opponent but once he has them timed, its a wrap.
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And that's all she wrote. Floyd's long reach also gain him an upper hand in that factor over JMM; simply because he won't have to lead with his punches in which would twist his body to be off balance as JMM usually does, and he'll less likely to get hit with anything flush.

Bogotazo · Nov 19, 2011

PBF24 said: ↑

And that's all she wrote. Floyd's long reach also gain him an upper hand in that factor over JMM; simply because he won't have to lead with his punches in which would twist his body to be off balance as JMM usually does, and he'll less likely to get hit with anything flush.
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It's about angles though; if Floyd doesn't consistently change the angle and feint to make Pac guess what's coming and fluidly counter in the pocket from under and above, then I think Pacquiao could change the angle quicker than Floyd, and maximize his own offense. It's just about accuracy or range; I'm focusing on the angles, which are Marquez's best defense and Pac's best offense, but which don't factor in as much to Floyd's usual strategy. My broad question (which is meant to promote thought and discussion rather than a definitive agreement or disagreement) is how is Floyd going to control the angles if he tries to tag Pac right in front of him?

IppoMakunouchi · Nov 29, 2011

Good post op this is probably the only thread on esb where I see some good technical arguments :good

divac · Nov 30, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

It's about angles though; if Floyd doesn't consistently change the angle and feint to make Pac guess what's coming and fluidly counter in the pocket from under and above, then I think Pacquiao could change the angle quicker than Floyd, and maximize his own offense. It's just about accuracy or range; I'm focusing on the angles, which are Marquez's best defense and Pac's best offense, but which don't factor in as much to Floyd's usual strategy. My broad question (which is meant to promote thought and discussion rather than a definitive agreement or disagreement) is how is Floyd going to control the angles if he tries to tag Pac right in front of him?
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I think you're forgetting Tazo, Mayweather has a significant reach advantage on Pacquiao......and as far as changing the angle, when a fighter charges Mayweather he's constantly guaging the rush.
Mayweather is great at anticipating a fighter charging him and letting go a hard single shot counter, and while he's landing it, he does'nt just stand there to wait for a reciept, he steps away at an angle and if the opening is there to land another he takes it, if not he resets.

Yes, Mayweather does'nt shoot multiple shot combinations with regularity, but I can guarantee you that if you get ultra aggressive against Mayweather, he's much more dangerous and apt to hurt you badly with a single shot than Marquez is if you leave yourself wide open.

A fighter as aggressive with his shots as Pacquiao is going to leave openings.

If Mayweather does'nt feel and respect your power, he's going to play defense right in front of you, and he's great at that.
......and if he does feel your power and feels the need to move, he's fully capable of changing the angle at the drop of a dime.

Bogotazo · Nov 30, 2011

IppoMakunouchi said: ↑

Good post op this is probably the only thread on esb where I see some good technical arguments :good
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:good

sunnn said: ↑

1 gif, 3 shots 1 landed.. wow. only buthhurt no-slomo ***gots like you thought pac lost to the pee drinker.
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The vast majority of viewers and posters on this forum thought Pacquiao lost to Marquez in their third bout. Get over it.

Divac, I agree with your points on Mayweather's skills (which are exceptional), except for that last one...I believe that he isn't capable of turning on a dime completely when he needs to; I've mentioned it before with De La Hoya, and it's evident in parts of the Zab Judah and Victor Ortiz fights. Not only does he suffer in losing control from being backed up (even when nothing is landing), but he steps to the left of southpaws all the time. And while he's great at measuring the distance with his reach and anticipating the rush with a counter, Judah was landing the straight left throughout the fight, even in the second half when he was getting dominated by Mayweather's body attack. Zab's jab almost never landed, but doubling up on it and landing that left afterward was something that Floyd was vulnerable to because of his tendency to go back in a straight line (and something Pac gets criticized for doing repetitively himself.)

The exchange before the headbutt against Ortiz is a prime example of Floyd not having the style to both attack while weaving out to change the angle and take control of the center again easily. Ortiz wasn't landing much and Floyd had won every round up to then, but my point is just that Floyd could make his life much easier at times by changing the angle on a dime as you say he can, but he often doesn't, and against a fast fighter with star power, the judges may favor Pac early on and give him a lead to work with.

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Also, I feel that Marquez's low center of gravity gave him an advantage against Pacquiao in that he could come up from under in the pocket with his counters, which Floyd doesn't really do unless in the pocket against the ropes being pressured by a traditional swarmer, which Pac is not. I'm not saying Floyd won't win or make Pac look stupid at times, but at least early on, I believe Pacquiao's footspeed is going to trouble Floyd's slimly angled stance and sometimes stationary tendencies. How Floyd adjusts and reacts from then on is a different story, but I'm confident Mayweather will look overly defensive in the first 4 or 5 rounds as he tries to take control of a fighter who can change the angle quicker than he can, rather than match his rhythm a la Marquez.

PBF24 · Dec 5, 2011

Bump.

IsaL · Dec 5, 2011

EnterTheDragon said: ↑

Fantastic ****ing post, man. I had the fight in Pac's favor in a very close contest. To me, the evidence is in the facial damage sustained by both fighters. Pac's skin isn't titanium (see their first two fights and Cotto/Clottey/Margarito) and by the final bell, Marquez's face clearly demonstrated who landed the more effective punches. Marquez might have landed the cleaner, textbook punches, but Pac's punches left behind much greater visual evidence. Look at their first two wars - each guy wearing a mask of bloody horror. The third time around, Pac suffered the least facial damage in any of his previous bouts at welterweight (Mosley aside). Bottom line is that Marquez put on an incredible performance, but end result was a guy whose face was barely marked up. If the argument is that Marquez countered the **** out of Pac all night (and Marquez places his punches with high precision and pop), then Pac's face should have been far more marked up.

For what it's worth, Floyd himself called himself the Pretty Boy for not taking punishment and looking "pretty" at the end of the bell.
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:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

This guy has to be someone's alt...! Is this GTSK's alt?

kalunya5964 · Dec 6, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

This is a bit awkward for me as a Marquez fan, but hear me out. I feel that people are discrediting Marquez's win by equating him to Mayweather and basically generalizing with the concept that Manny would get beaten by any elite counter-puncher, including Floyd, by default. I have to say that people are harshly ignoring the nuances of the game by continually equating Marquez and Floyd without looking at the subtle but absolutely key aspects of their tactical profiles.

They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.

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Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows. I can point to the De La Hoya fight (which I thought he won) for evidence of this habit. De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.

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This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.
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This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

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Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach. Floyd can counter for 3 rounds and then come forward for 7, while Marquez can switch between momentary aggressor and counter-puncher several times within the same round.

Mayweather's great ability still gives him a logical avenue for victory- but don't think for a second that Pacquiao's own skills and physical gifts are a puzzle easily solved by a majority of elite boxers that necessarily bunch both Mayweather and Marquez together.

Styles (NOT labels) make fights, and Marquez and Mayweather are nearly night and day when it comes to applying their craft.
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I agree with you though you started on a wrong premise... JMM did not beat Pac! JMM landed beautiful and cleaner punches but Pac outpunched him which obviously did more damage judging from how they looked after the fight!

Gander Tasco · Dec 7, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

:good

The vast majority of viewers and posters on this forum thought Pacquiao lost to Marquez in their third bout. Get over it.

Divac, I agree with your points on Mayweather's skills (which are exceptional), except for that last one...I believe that he isn't capable of turning on a dime completely when he needs to; I've mentioned it before with De La Hoya, and it's evident in parts of the Zab Judah and Victor Ortiz fights. Not only does he suffer in losing control from being backed up (even when nothing is landing), but he steps to the left of southpaws all the time. And while he's great at measuring the distance with his reach and anticipating the rush with a counter, Judah was landing the straight left throughout the fight, even in the second half when he was getting dominated by Mayweather's body attack. Zab's jab almost never landed, but doubling up on it and landing that left afterward was something that Floyd was vulnerable to because of his tendency to go back in a straight line (and something Pac gets criticized for doing repetitively himself.)

The exchange before the headbutt against Ortiz is a prime example of Floyd not having the style to both attack while weaving out to change the angle and take control of the center again easily. Ortiz wasn't landing much and Floyd had won every round up to then, but my point is just that Floyd could make his life much easier at times by changing the angle on a dime as you say he can, but he often doesn't, and against a fast fighter with star power, the judges may favor Pac early on and give him a lead to work with.

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Also, I feel that Marquez's low center of gravity gave him an advantage against Pacquiao in that he could come up from under in the pocket with his counters, which Floyd doesn't really do unless in the pocket against the ropes being pressured by a traditional swarmer, which Pac is not. I'm not saying Floyd won't win or make Pac look stupid at times, but at least early on, I believe Pacquiao's footspeed is going to trouble Floyd's slimly angled stance and sometimes stationary tendencies. How Floyd adjusts and reacts from then on is a different story, but I'm confident Mayweather will look overly defensive in the first 4 or 5 rounds as he tries to take control of a fighter who can change the angle quicker than he can, rather than match his rhythm a la Marquez.
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very good **** bogo . Another tihng is Floyd is very susceptible to feints. He overreacts to punches in general. Just another thing that could get him in trouble against Pacquiao.

Bogotazo · Dec 7, 2011

kalunya5964 said: ↑

I agree with you though you started on a wrong premise... JMM did not beat Pac! JMM landed beautiful and cleaner punches but Pac outpunched him which obviously did more damage judging from how they looked after the fight!
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A vast majority of posters agree that those cleaner punches mattered more than the volume in terms of points scored and rounds won, irrespective of their irrelevant skin conditions post-fight. That's good enough for me when making a thread title stating a claim.

Regardless, it's not essential to the points I've made.

Phat_Ass_Dude · Dec 7, 2011

Gander Tasco said: ↑

Thanks for saving me the time to post this. Great stuff as usual Bogo.

People just have a hard time accepting the fact that styles make fights. One guy can give another guy hell, and have the same thing happen to him the next fight. It's the reason why a c-level fighter like Michael Katsidis can put JMM on his ass yet Pacquiao was not able to last night. Does that mean Katsidis is superior to Pacquiao?

The only similarity between Floyd and JMM is that they are defensive fighters. JMM goes about his work in way that almost totally neutralizes what Pacquiao is doing ,whereas Floyd does things that could potentially give himself problems against Pacman; namely walking back/forth in straight lines, planting his feet when he goes defensive, locking up behind a shell, running back /fleeing when he gets hit instead of returning fire , only throwing single punches instead of combinations, less body work then JMM , etc.

When it comes to styles, JMM is to Pacquiao as Frazier was to Ali. He'll always give him hell. It doesnt mean he's greater, or even better, it's just comes down to styles.
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Dude, you complete contradict yourself with every post about a possible Pac/FMJ fight. So the only similarity that JMM and FMJ have is that they are counter punchers...right? Yet you continue to post videos of Floyd versus Judah and Spadafora saying stuff like "Look what Judah and Spadafora are doing" as if to imply that they (and Pacquiao) are similar. When in reality, the only similarities between Pacquiao, Judah and Spaddy is they are southpaws. Pacquiao has nowhere near the footwork and athleticism of Judah, Hell, Pacquiao doesn't even come close to fighting anywhere near the same Style as neither fighter. In fact a WHITE GUY FROM PITTSBURGH (SPADDY) has better footwork and technique than Pacquiao.

I actually agree with that being a counter puncher is basically the only similarity between JMM and FMJ. But It blows my mind that you have fail to notice nor place in any of your post about the intangibles and assets that FMJ has that are far SUPERIOR to JMM. Floyd is bigger, taller, longer reach, is a far better athlete, he much faster, better defense, has a better, faster jab, uses his jab more, and JMM counters with his right hand where-as FMJ has a right-hand LEAD that-is Fantastic. Yet none this factors into your predictions and you believe that FMJ with just stand in the middle of the ring or against the ropes for 12 rounds in a defensive shell and allow Pacquiao to just Punch Away...

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canucks9314 · Dec 7, 2011

Phat_Ass_Dude said: ↑

Dude, you complete contradict yourself with every post about a possible Pac/FMJ fight. So the only similarity that JMM and FMJ have is that they are counter punchers...right? Yet you continue to post videos of Floyd versus Judah and Spadafora saying stuff like "Look what Judah and Spadafora are doing" as if to imply that they (and Pacquiao) are similar. When in reality, the only similarities between Pacquiao, Judah and Spaddy is they are southpaws. Pacquiao has nowhere near the footwork and athleticism of Judah, Hell, Pacquiao doesn't even come close to fighting anywhere near the same Style as neither fighter. In fact a WHITE GUY FROM PITTSBURGH (SPADDY) has better footwork and technique than Pacquiao.

I actually agree with that being a counter puncher is basically the only similarity between JMM and FMJ. But It blows my mind that you have fail to notice nor place in any of your post about the intangibles and assets that FMJ has that are far SUPERIOR to JMM. Floyd is bigger, taller, longer reach, is a far better athlete, he much faster, better defense, has a better, faster jab, uses his jab more, and JMM counters with his right hand where-as FMJ has a right-hand LEAD that-is Fantastic. Yet none this factors into your predictions and you believe that FMJ with just stand in the middle of the ring or against the ropes for 12 rounds in a defensive shell and allow Pacquiao to just Punch Away...

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:deal

Phat_Ass_Dude · Dec 7, 2011

canucks9314 said: ↑

:deal
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Just Sayin'

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Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

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