Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Bogotazo, Nov 13, 2011.


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  1. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    The point in making this thread was to show the different aspects of Juan and Floyd's style, and pointing out that lead-foot positioning is a key factor. Juan uses consistent in-range lateral movement and pivoting to get his lead foot on the outside to nullify Pac's angle and set up his own, whereas Floyd largely fights in straight lines and only circles when disengaged. Juan also used a low center of gravity to come up from under Manny's guard on the inside, whereas Floyd is taller and doesn't switch between the role of aggressor and counter-puncher as fluidly as Juan does. Floyd could win on shelling up and having Manny fall in on him, giving up his positioning and eating counters, but there are habits he often uses and maneuvers he neglects unique to his own style and distinct from Marquez's which could open up avenues for Manny's offense.
     
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
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  2. Boxing Fanatic

    Boxing Fanatic Loyal Member banned

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    what was bradley? pac knows how to think in the ring. u guys keep forgetting cotto was past it and not as fast as he use to be like against mosley. if slow arse cotto could get to him, pac will have more success. this aint rocket science. :verysad y do u think floyd doesnt want the fight? LOL
     
    Boxing Fanatic, Sep 22, 2012
    Boxing Fanatic, Sep 22, 2012
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  3. AxlRose

    AxlRose Guest

    What a sorry excuse for a boxing fan you are. If fighter A beats B who beat C, it dont mean A beats C. :patsch

    Floyd not training hard enough? What do you think of the presidential candidate Pacquiao? The man is distracted as fukk while May has all the time in the world to train. Eff of with your ***** BS.
     
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
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  4. AxlRose

    AxlRose Guest

    *****s really dont want this fight! :lol:
     
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
    #709
  5. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    You don't belong here troll :fire
     
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
    #710
  6. AxlRose

    AxlRose Guest

    Beating a 135-lb fighter will never do much for 165-lber's standing.

    It however, makes the 135-lber GOAT. :hi:
     
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
    #711
  7. AxlRose

    AxlRose Guest

    How am I trolling? All I said is true. :huh
     
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
    AxlRose, Sep 22, 2012
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  8. Thatman

    Thatman No respond troll pactards banned

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    I know what the thread is about.

    Floyd has better lateral movement than Juan plus his footwork is much better than Marquez's footwork. I dissagree with you saying Floyd fights in straight lines. He is a master at "stealing" angles that were taken from him (example Opponent takes an angle and Floyd drops that back foot as quick as the opponent takes the angle, Floyd steals it back).

    Floyd is taller your right...his arms are longer and he has bigger shoulders, with much better technique in his fight game. He would dictate the pace of the fight and could take Manny inside all night. He would throw Manny around on the inside just as Cotto was able to throw Floyd around at times on the inside.

    Floyd also adapts to his opponents style quicker and better than Juan. When Manny does his little pitter patter step thing, I see Floyd being able to use his straight right hand all night.

    Pac's jab is horrible as well, and that would be another pull right counter.

    Floyd would not give up position to Manny Pacquiao very often and it would be rare in the fight. Floyd would be the one controlling the tempo and pace of the fight.

    If Floyd chooses he can also make it very technical and boring and just take a UD. Use his jab to hit Manny coming in and eventually follow up with right hands and finish with the hook.

    Note-I am willing to put a lifetime ban bet that Floyd lands right hands over Manny's jab over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

    Sorry about no commas etc...about to watch Jon Jones.

    Floyd TKO Manny 10...accumulation would make the ref stop it as Manny would be hitting MOSTLY air and would be getting tagged all night long with right hands and jabs...eventually Floyd would finish with his hook after that right hand.
     
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
    #713
  9. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    I don't see what you're saying that has any specific relevance beyond general terms like "better technique" and "better footwork". The question at hand concerns lateral movement. I don't see how you can say Floyd hasn't habituated himself to fighting in straight lines when he's been backed up consistently above 140 and has failed repeatedly to get his left foot on the outside against southpaws. Only when advancing has he been able to neutralize their mobility, and I don't see him doing that against Manny. Juan moves around the ring much more than Floyd does, and can hit on the move in a way Floyd prefers not to. Floyd sets himself to punch and deceives with his upper-body movement, whereas JMM pivots as he throws. Here, Floyd makes it from the center to the ropes in 2 seconds flat without DLH really landing most of his wide shots (a bad habit considering the philly shell's openness to left straights):

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    The "pull-counter" is done over an orthodox jab; the angle isn't there to do the same thing to a southpaw. When Floyd lands rights against lefties, it's advancing with leads. Floyd seemed sensitive to Judah's double-right jab, and the thing is, it wasn't even landing-it was a set-up much the way Pac uses his:

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    You make a good point in landing the jab on Manny as he comes in, but again, that all depends on lead foot positioning. A jab without a turn against Manny invites a left straight or right hook counter. Against Bradley, Manny showed a better capacity to anticipate and counter an opponent's counters while advancing due to having lead foot positioning (since Bradley was circling too far out instead of in-range):

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    And again, while reach gives Floyd an advantage, it could also allow Pac to weave under his punches easier than he did Marquez, who constantly came up from under and caught Pac in a way only a similarly sized man could do.

    This fight has lost some of its appeal and Manny might be fading, but the point is that "Floyd is just a bigger faster version of Marquez" is an idiotic notion that neglects the fundamentals of the sport and the styles of each.
     
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
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  10. Thatman

    Thatman No respond troll pactards banned

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    I completely disagree with just about everything your saying. You show clips, sure. Doesn't mean that he does that EVERYTIME...it is not a habit.

    I am not only saying he is "quicker and faster." He is more skilled with better coordination. He can adapt to Manny better than Juan can adapt to manny. Manny doing his 1-2-3 where he over commits his punches and leaves himself open, gives Floyd plenty of counterpunching opportunities.

    Floyd can throw over the top of Manny's jab all night as Manny brings it back low all the time and he pitty pats with it at times. I see Manny making to many mistakes to do much of anything. Floyd can fight a pure boxer type of fight (not moving), sweep away from Manny's punches as he pitter pats his feet and pop him consistently.

    Manny does not have the coordination to duck under Floyd's punches...this isn't Hatton with slow punches coming at you..Floyd would be able to counter Manny off his over commitement while punching much quicker than Juan.

    You keep mentioning "the lead foot." Floyd's keeps his lead foot in front and he is always on point with his "train tracks."

    Floyd can also take Manny on the inside and push him around. When Manny does his little side step thing to get out, Floyd will have a lot of time to pop him and hit him with something he doesn't see coming.

    The fight is not a technically hard fight for Floyd. The difference in skill is horrible for Manny as well.
     
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
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  11. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Floyd very often goes back in straight line when feinted or pressed. His coordination has little to do with that. It's a habit I think most would recognize. I keep mentioning lead foot positioning because when two opposite-stanced fighters fight, the one that gets their lead foot on the outside of the other's usually wins, because their lead and rear-hands are angled to land, whereas the opponent's hands can't quite reach the face. JMM circles in-range consistently and turns Manny, whereas Floyd usually steps straight forward or back. Manny himself turns orthodox opponents all the time, which is why he can land his usual punches when he feints. He doesn't just come forward lunging a 1-2-3, he does so while stepping his lead foot outwords to pivot out. Only Marquez has nullified this through his own lateral movement, and Morales did as well through a combination of pivoting as well as smothering him on the inside with fast-paced combinations.

    Floyd's sensitivity to feints is what allows Judah to get off after jabbing. It happened several times. The right hand is only going to land if Floyd gets the angle to throw it. Otherwise, if Manny makes it a priority to get his own angle on Floyd, the right hand is neutralized, just like Bradley's was for most of the fight.

    Manny anticipated Bradley's quickness, and Cotto anticipated Floyd's with much less hand and footspeed of his own; it's not unfeasible that Manny can prepare to anticipate the left hook and right hand counters Floyd often employs. And if he makes Floyd tentative enough on the backfoot with feints before throwing, he might not have to. Feinting before pivoting and throwing is the same way Ward was able to get the angle on Dawson.

    Floyd is more skilled, but if the more skilled fighter won every time, the sport would look very different.
     
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
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  12. Thatman

    Thatman No respond troll pactards banned

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    I'll agree to dissagree.

    The one thing I will say is that Floyd will win the battle of the feet more times than Manny and more times than Marquez with money. His footwork is much better than both fighters.

    With Judah, your looking at 6 years ago.

    Not sure if this has been posted but this video explains my view on the fight.


    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtARRrX2FXQ[/ame]
     
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
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  13. Rexrapper 1

    Rexrapper 1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My issue is that the fight with Marquez wasn't the only fight where Manny had major issues in. Morales beat Manny as well without moving laterally like Marquez did. Morales basically established his jab, countered Manny when he came in and brought it to Manny on many occasions (part of the reason why we love Morales). The second fight looked like a replica of the first one until Morales showed signs of being weight drained.

    Also one thing I tend to notice with Floyd is that he moves laterally when his opponent moves laterally. The Marquez fight is an example of this. Marquez eventually stopped doing this but early on in the fight, both were moving laterally. I honestly see Floyd becoming an aggressive counter puncher in that fight. I'm sorry but I don't see how Floyd would keep getting hit all night with a jab and straight right hand. Floyd tends to have problems with fighters who apply intelligent pressure, utilize their jab, and get him on the inside.
     
    Rexrapper 1, Sep 22, 2012
    Rexrapper 1, Sep 22, 2012
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  14. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    I think Floyd has great footwork, but no matter how efficient and accurate it is, if he plants himself and lets Manny get the angle, he's in danger of getting popped hard by that straight left. He doesn't have better lateral movement than Marquez. With the way he leans back, it only takes one hard left to catch the eye of the judges or put him on his ass and change the whole dynamic.

    The way Marquez stays low and tilts his body is something the Philly Shell doesn't allow.

    Floyd's lead foot positioning against southpaws:
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    (Here Cotto is all the way to Floyd's right, another way southpaw's get the angle, by using inside lead foot positioning)
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    VS Marquez's:
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    If Pac is reckless, he'll give up his position and get countered all night. If he's tentative, he'll be picked apart. But if he can tread the middle line necessary to feint and move to where he can get the angle on Floyd, he's got a shot. Marquez's specific maneuvers aren't in Floyd's habitual style.
     
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
    Bogotazo, Sep 22, 2012
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  15. Thatman

    Thatman No respond troll pactards banned

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    Like I said I'll agree to disagree.

    Manny does not have the boxing skill nor the coordination to find that middle ground. He fights one way only.

    Floyd does not fight one way. He fights different with every fighter. Floyd CAN choose to make it a boring boxing match if he wants to and just pick Manny apart. Manny would be handcuffed as he would not be able to deal with the counterpunching and physical size mixed with superior skill of Floyd.

    I agree with the bolded though. Manny has about a puncher's chance.
     
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
    Thatman, Sep 22, 2012
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