Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by dmt, Oct 3, 2007.


  1. cardstars

    cardstars Gamboa is GOD Full Member

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    That highlight video gave me the shivers.....he is indeed "the marvelous one"
     
  2. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He was great. One of the best. I rate him 2nd behind Monzon and ahead of the Sugarman at 160.
     
  3. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A great fighter and one of the finest Middleweights ever, also a self made superstar.

    Hagler got nothing easy, and when he had everything, he still trained with that hunger that got him to the top, something even his few peers could not always do.
     
  4. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree. One of the (many) things you have to credit Marv for is his ability to be 'up' for every fight. Let's face it, it must have been dismaying for him when he found out he had to fight Hamsho and Obel in rematches, when he dusted them so convincingly first time out. Still, he got on with business in his usual manner.
     
  5. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    he was also highly feared and avoided. Amazing chin, all round game.
     
  6. dmille

    dmille Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The opinion in question is your opinion that Michael Nunn is an all-time great middleweight. That has nothing to do with Nino or Griffith. His rating as an all-time great is independent of any other fighter's achievements. It is based on his achievements (or lack of them) alone.
     
  7. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A proven great to you.Not imo and i was simply pointing out i actually think the kalambay nunn beat was superior to the toney that beat nunn(or any Toney i ever saw for that matter), not disagreeing with your point on Nunn.
     
  8. dmille

    dmille Well-Known Member Full Member

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    My hierarchy is a pyramid. It has three general levels:

    1 All-time greats
    2 Legends
    3 Greats

    Within the all-time level, I have four sub-levels

    1
    2-10
    11-80
    81-100

    At the top is one fighter, the greatest fighter of all-time pound-for-pound.

    The next level down is the top ten fighters of all-time pound-for-pound (including that top fighter).

    The next level down is the top ten fighters of all time from each of the eight traditional weight divisions (which includes the top ten pound for-pound).

    IMO every all-time rating is also a pound-for-pound all-time rating. For example, the greatest welterweight of all-time is also the greatest welterweight of all-time pound-for-pound.

    Eight of the top ten all-time pound-for-pound greats are the number one fighters of all-time from each of the eight traditional weight classes. I rate fighters in one division only, their natural/prime weight division. I constantly cross-compared the eight top tens with ten top eights to balance dominance with my pound-for-pound criteria.

    After that those eighty, I round out my top 100 with those fighters who fall just outside the top ten for each weight division.

    Many use the terms legend and all-time great as though they were interchangable. IMO legend is short for legend-in-their-own-time. All-time great transcend their own eras and could compete at the top level during any decade.

    There are probably somewhere between 200 and 400 fighters who fall into that legend category. And there are around another 500 fighters who are (merely) greats.

    Great is a term I use very loosely. Because as I said previously a fighter can prove himself great in any one of three ways.

    1 Have a great record
    2 Defeat great fighters
    3 Win great fights

    Example, Buster Douglas proved himself to be a great fighter by defeating Mike Tyson. Now he was great for only one fight, but that is the shame of it - what could have been.

    Guys like Ward and Gatti proved themselves to be great fighters based on their trilogy of FOTY-level wars.

    Even a fighter like Buck Smith, who fought mostly tomato cans, is great if only for his outrageous 178-19-2 (118 KOs) record.

    Now come full circle and go back to Michael Nunn. His 58-4 record is an achievement he can be proud of; same with his 9 title defenses (5 at 160, 4 at 168). That's the first citeria.

    Number two. His victories over A-level opposition Tate, Kalambay and Barkely are his most significant, followed by Starling, Curry and Cordova. You can throw in his pre-title wins over Alex Ramos and Curtis Parker as well.

    But the only fighter he faced that comes close to hitting all five of my standards knocked him out. And Toney's meeting the dominance criteria is questionable due to so many controversial wins (Sosa, Johnson, McCallum, Tiberi). And Sosa was JT's only meaningful bout before getting the shot at Nunn.

    Third criteria? Nunn never won a fight that I would call a war let alone a FOTY level battle. His crushing of Kalambay was more a great victory than a great fight.

    Dominance? IMO he was the WORLD champion after that win, but he should have been facing McCallum, Benn and Jackson, rather than Curry or Starling.

    P4P? Fugadabodit...

    IMO he is not one of the top 20 middleweights of all-time nor one of the top 100 of all-time pound-for-pound.
     
  9. dmille

    dmille Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Well then point out anything significant that proved to you that Kalambay was better than simply world class.

    His splitting two with McCallum? His pair of nods over Graham? Wins over Barkely and Collins?

    Superior to any Toney you ever saw? And he proved it by getting taken out in the first round? Yeah much more impressive than JT's brawl with Jirov, his thrashing of Holy and his embarassingly easy out-boxing of Ruiz
     
  10. brownpimp88

    brownpimp88 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Please give me ur 20 middleweights that accomplished more? I guarantee you will put either marcel cerdan, valdez or zale on that list, what did they do that was so significant. You will probably put stanley ketchel on you list too even though his best wins are over jack o brien at 175 and ****in billy papke of all people.
     
  11. dmille

    dmille Well-Known Member Full Member

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    More than Kalambay or Nunn?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "****in' Billy Papke of all people" world middleweight champion?
     
  12. brownpimp88

    brownpimp88 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A world champ in the baby stages of boxing and in a weak era. Billy Papke is his signature win and ketchel gets regarded as a top 5-7 middleweight of all times.
     
  13. dmille

    dmille Well-Known Member Full Member

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    And all this time I thought the baby stages of boxing were before the establishment of the London Prize Ring rules (1743)...

    Is fighting still fighting? Is tough still tough? Is fast still fast? Is ten seconds still a knockout?

    You think you could have whipped his [Papke's] @ss?
     
  14. SeanDoc

    SeanDoc Member Full Member

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    Best beard in boxing
     
  15. The Whaler

    The Whaler My dog be thorough. Full Member

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    Hagler dispensing fatherly advice.
     


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