Marvin Hagler, The Thread.

I haven't voted George because I find it very difficult to offer any kind of answer to questions of whether a boxer could beat someone like Harry Greb for instance.

I do however respect the time and analysis you and others put in to trying to answer these questions and enjoy reading the evidence you provide.

I do feel a little more confident when considering the what if question when it concerns two boxers who I have seen. In this instance, I will take prime Hagler to beat Hopkins, maybe not comfortably, but definitively. The man wasn't only a highly skilled and dedicated professional, he had an aura about him that few fighters ever attain. I think he's one of the most underrated boxers because he should be featuring in far more ATG discussions than he does. Hopkins was good bordering on great. Hagler was great bordering on legendary.

 

Hi robert. I'm curious regarding your experience of Hopkins. I read about how he took care of Steve Little's widow financially (gave her $200,000 apparently) and that made me think differently about him. All I had previously seen was the rather obnoxious public image where he was a) winding up the opponent and b) selling tickets by playing the bad guy.

It would be fascinating to have some more light shed on the real man, if you're of a mind to elaborate, please.

 

Hi Eddie
I wasnt implying I was trying to talk #### on him. He was nice enough to me.
But to be frank and without getting into too much detail. I dont like how he treated Fisher. I dont like how he completely clears the gym for himself and himself only when hes training here in Philadelphia. I'm not going going to go into his person life that's his own so I'll just leave that alone I touched on it befor but I'm a little wiser hopefully so I leave it alone.
Just not a big fan on many levels and most importantly I stand by what I said about his boxing style both good and bad. I also believe he could have continued when he was pushed or whatever it was to the floor those times. Replays showed he was full of it and he quit yet no one calls him out on it and no I'm not talking about the Smith fight even though that one even looks iffy if I remember correctly but I could be wrong no argument there.

 

Very good post .. a few thoughts .. his prime as you wrote say Minter thru Sibson, his speed was very good, not great .. he made up for it with his high degree of polish, athleticism, overall game and long reach .. he had 75" which is pretty long. He was the definition of a boxer / puncher .. your second and third point tend to tie together into what I refer to the issue between his ears .. it wasn't that he had a poor IQ because he clearly didn't , obviously but he believe it or not lacked overall confidence at times , just a touch of it .. maybe a bit about stamina , maybe who knows what but it showed the most in Vito 1, Duran and Leonard .. He showed he learned his lesson against Vito in the rematch .. he fought very cautious against Duran when he didn't have to .. that fight was much moe about what Mavin didn't do then what Duran did for all the credit Roberto received to me .. then the Leonard disaster when he was cherry picked when over ripe, flattered with the large purse and terrible terms and had had the fight legitimately stolen from him by a very clever Leonard ..

AS far as where he rates , clearly a top guy .. it's such a talent rich division but he's up there with the best of the best .. a 30 year old Robinson, Monzon who to this day I still haven't figured out, Greb on tremendous resume . I like him over Hopkins and GGG. I believe Jones and Toney were in there too despite short runs in the division .. I also always felt McCallum would have given Hagler a monster test.

 

...here's Steele vs. Lesnevish, btw:

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That version of Steele is a nightmare for literally any middleweight in history - including even Hagler, Monzón and SRR. '36 Tacoma Assassin is the division's rough equivalent of Tokyo Douglas. (although Freddie was consistently better than Buster over a much longer period, but still...during this span he shifted into turbo mode)

 

Steele looks really impressive to me on film when I see him. No doubt most of what we have today of him are highlights, which may flatter him a bit, but, still. He looks really fast, accurate and hard hitting.

 

Here is another good Steele fight:

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A bit of a strange looking fighter, he had a good jab but didn't seem to use it that much, preferring to lay down a carpetbombing on the midriff and using a combination of head and body movement and parrying to stay out of trouble. His left hook is murderous.

 

Here's another Steele fight. That kid could bang. And his left hook is once again the bomb that sets off the win:

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Steele is one of the most underrated 'Great' fighters ever. We've had a few good threads on him here if you want the info (which I'm sure you've seen).

 

I actually think Freddie would fare quite well if you could transplant him to present day - which you can't say honestly about too many fighters of eight decades bygone, IMO, even most of the champions.

 

...props to @roughdiamond for being the lone wolf throwing Steele a vote in the poll before anybody was even talking about him in here, btw. I happened to not cast him a vote, but he's no less reasonable a guess to have a fair chance of beating Hagler as the rest.

 

Steele is one of the greats who deserves appreciation. He had some amazing fighting instincts and a dominant reign. If only he had some of that New York hype, then people would actually overrate him lol.

 

...FWIW, when interviewed by ESPN a few years ago (8/10/2016), in his own way Hagler paid Monzón the highest compliments and demonstrated the regard in which the American great holds the Argentinian:

Matt (LA): Champ...ESPN is doing a survey about who is the best middleweight of all time? Who do I pick?
Marvelous Marvin Hagler (4:26 PM): Me, of course. I would have to say Monzon and Sugar Ray Robinson.

Really interesting, that. One can interpret that he was being deadly serious about himself, but then honoring the pair as his runners-up or those with the closest argument to his - or that his initial answer was just kidding, and that he followed up by correcting with his genuine pick, indicating that he actually esteems them both as greater than himself.



Rick (Walla Walla): Marvin, If there was one fight you wish you could have had, that "one last fight" to go out on, who would it have been against? And how would you have gone about fighting that person? Thank You
Marvelous Marvin Hagler (4:45 PM): It would have had to have been Sugar Ray Leonard, because then I would have been able to tie Carlos Monzon's record of 14 title defenses. But I think the best thing happened, that I retired, because there will always be another fight and another fight ...

Note that he specifies his primary reason for wanting a rematch with SRL isn't to avenge the loss, redeem himself, or shut Ray up (although I'm sure all of those were supplemental factors in his pursuit of it) - but to catch up with Escopeta. Marvin had an eye towards posterity, and knew that placing himself alongside Monzón in at least that one statistically quantitative manner, would have been a flattery to his own legacy (with scholars then left to debate the qualitative worth of each man's fourteen defenses ad infinitum, and thus rating their overall legacies relative to each other's) and his best chance to be recognized among the pound for pounds greats forever, remaining as he did (thus disadvantaging him, in some folks' eyes, in that conversation) in one division.

http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/chat?id=5472

 

Agree. Vivid and thought-provoking description of a fantasy Hagler v Monzon showdown.