Marvin Hagler vs. Joe Calzaghe

I think the styles make it close. I see Toney fighting off the ropes a lot and countering Calzaghe to a points win.

 

I can see this going either way

 

and scoring a KD along the way. JC's come forward style winging punches make him vulnerable. One of his biggest weaknesses ( and overlooked on this debate) is his constant risk taking. It would land him in hot water against Hagler, Jones, Toney, Hopkins at their peaks (it almost did against ancient Hopkins / Jones) who were smarter fighters in that regard.

 

Hagler outworks and outhustles Calzaghe... then Hagler loses by Split-Decision.

 

Couldnt have put it better myself.

 

So Hagler's wins, but actually loses?. Is this in reference to the Leonard decision by any chance? He certainly never outworked Leonard or outhustled him. Pretty much vice versa IMO.

 

A short opinion on my part, without getting into the weeds. First big Hagler fan here, but i'm not of the mindset the Marv is the end all.

I think Joe wins this under current rules (prior day weigh in). As Marv would be up against a true LHW. Who has excellent hand and foot speed (like a WW), ring intelligence, and a maybe higher workrate than hagler himself had. It's the old good big man beats good smaller man here.

As much as I like Marv, I think Joe would be too much.

If at 164 catch weight, same day weigh in then Hagler

 

I still don't see 4 pounds at a weight up that high meaning we have some sort of emaciated dying Calz being helped into the ring.

The more pertinent point IMO is that Hagler would come in weighing say 160 fight time while Calz by then will be 180+.

Now we are talking some serious weight.

 

I'm sure you see my point tho, and that is it's a two horse race not a totally one sided negative critique.

Personally i see him substancially better than that, but each to their own. If he was a natural 160 i can see him going extremely well vs Marvin's opposition, including a win over SRL at the same career stage via pure workrate and imposing himself. He's well past it now but still fighting effectively.

I still can't work out why anyone thought Jones wasn't done. He was shot many years ago and hadn't beat anyone to say other.

I wouldn't call it almost out myself. Let us not smoke over the fact Joe is well past his peak here. If Hagler fought on he too would have run into probs - big ones. The thing is Joe is still winning over some of the best in boxing, and that is a very notable accomplishment.

I'd never ever say "easily", and i think it's safe to say prime Hopkins is always going to fight at the higher weights more comfortably than a Hagler. He's shown they hold no demons for him. I think prime Hopkins would be able to win a pretty tight decision, but i'd sure hate to count Joe out.

Older Eubank was beaten handily by a green Calzaghe, i'd hate to be staking much money on him at any point. He was still developing around the Reid fight too if we are fair. He was Joe's 25th fight. Hagler by comparison was losing to both the Boogaloo and Monroe at this stage. Colbert also presented great probs. I'd rather struggle and win, than struggle and lose.


You keep saying he struggled with 168, yet here we have him at 46-0 with 32 ko's. You think the extra 4 pounds will work miracles against him, but i am not so sure. Regardless he still piles on plenty of poundage pre fight to be the MUCH bigger fighter.

Pummeling? Regardless of who wins the fight i cannot see a pummeling either way. Anyone thinking this isn't reasonably competitive one way or another is kidding IMO.

There's always the extremes. Some will underrate, some will overrate etc, same with Hagler. What Calz does have is one damn awkward style and skillset and i see him being a pain in the bum for most anyone. Not many are going to look good against him.

Depends on how much one perceives 4 pounds. I make a lot less of it than you.

Then you woke up

Look at Hagler Larry, he can't seem to time Joe's rushes, these flurries are points in the bank. Marvin can't find the range he wants to fight at and seems lost for idea's. Calz in again, he seems to move Hagler with ease. He's definitely the stronger man in there, he's the boss.

 

:good

 

JT. I'm amazed how easily you judge a fighter to be in your words "well past his peak". If thats your opinion, then Calzaghe's peak must have went down at an alarmingly rapid rate. Because against Kessler he showed he was as good as ever. The early Calzaghe would not have managed that type of performance, mainly because he was prone to being more of a puncher outwith the last 4 years.

The only problem Calzaghe has had over the last few years is his hands. He's had to pull out of some fights due to injuries and hand problems. People seriously underrate Calzaghe's power based on the Hopkins showing when he was acussed of slapping and going the distance a lot recently. But when it comes to speed, variety, boxing ability, and all round effectiveness, he came into his own around the Lacy fight.

The Calzaghe of the Lacy and Kessler fights was a far more well rounded and mature fighter than any version prior. He was clearly at his peak for those fights. Yet he's "well past his peak" only a year later? What serious signs of decline to be 'well past his peak' did you see against Jones compared to Lacy and Kessler?

 

All good points JT. Suffice to say I disagree with most of 'em. For the record I was hoarse on Sunday morning after spending my Saturday night at the Garden roaring on JC. As a Brit I am proud of his accomplishments; as a realist I believe his recent wins have given him a reputation his abilities don't match. Damn good fighter but not in the same league as Hopkins, JOnes, Hagler, Toney. I believe they all beat him at 168, let alone 164.

 

Oh and JT if 4 pounds is nothing then it really should have no material effect on Hagler then? Perhaps he's even better at the weight? I mean why not? He knocked out Sugar Ray Seales in one round weighing almost 162.

 

Marvin was perfectly suited at 160, a completely natural middleweight. Even with the modern weigh in i can't see Hagler doing anything different as he is so well suited at 158 - 160. Calz by contrast leans right down then gains as much as 20 odd pounds by fight time. He's coming in at 168 but weighing 185 or even more punch time. He's a much much bigger man naturally.

Ezzard often brings the modern weigh in point up, and it's a fair comment. Fighters such as Hagler would be disadvantaged by the modern rule, where as Calz and co would be disadvantaged by the old. Who is to say Hagler under modern draining and the like would not be boiling down to 154 then fattening back up to 160 or whatever fight time. By contrast Calz might have to simply fight at 175, he certainly would in Haglers day with no 168. Even staying at 168 might be a drama.

Personally i am not sure i like the modern trend tho there hasn't been any tragedy recently.