Marvin Hagler vs Lloyd Marshall @ middleweight

BTW, can we truly call the juiced Light's Out a legitimate MW? Yes, certainly a former 160 pounder, but a transient one nonetheless.

Of course all of us who met Marv during his career know he was a small MW, but I'll tell ya, he had a VERY long jab from the end of his collarbone to the end of his hands. I once asked him to face me at the Deusche Williams law firm in Boston where my sister was a charter receptionist, and shoulders squared, we reached our arms out to each other. I was 5'10" with an identically 70 inch reach. I couldn't touch him, and we both got a great kick out of that. He always remembered my sister's name and mine, although we were only transient acquaintances. Just a great guy, always very friendly and cheerful. (Thousands here share the same stories and experiences with him. There were times he was New England's only World Champion, and he was undisputed in boxing's second marquee division after the HWs. I badly wish he was still here with us.)

 

To beat a ready Lloyd Marshall Marvin Hagler would have to be in his prime at his very best. I'd hate to have to wager on this fight, in my opinion it's that close but I'd pick the Hagler that beat Sibson, Hamsho and Wilfred Scypion to beat Marshall but I have zero confidence. When a guy has wins on his resume over Ezzard Charles, Burley and LaMotta he's an all time threat at 160.

 

I think it should be factored in that Marshall sometimes," did business",reports of some of his losses imply he was wearing the cuffs.

 

you know I have heard this for approx 25 years, though I can honestly say I have never read anything on the matter bar on these Boxing sites. I have No Doubt however that Marshall (among many many others), was presented with some rather interesting offers and/or scenario's that were concluded with no uncertain terms left unspoken, No Doubt.

But is there any Recorded Contemporary Reports or Documentation on the matter?

 

The trouble is by his own words he was indeed buckled, but when? I have an article in a mag (if i ever come across again it i will tag you) where he says he had rocked to the point of not knowing where he was. He did not mention what fight but there's a strong chance it was when Monroe put an absolute flogging on him in their first fight...but that might be wrong. You too are well read and perhaps you recall it. I want to say it was around the time that Ray fought Howard and it was Marvin responding to Leonard's choice to re-retire......we've all been hit and hurt i have had fights where......etc.

I still strongly disagree we can extrapolate Hagler's great chin at middleweight and start trying to connect it to what Toney did at heavyweight.

Exhibit 1 - Richard Tiger, he of an amazing chin at 160 was one punched into another world by Bob Foster.

I have no problem with that being highly likely and a contributor..........but again this equals Toney taking a better punch higher up.

Yeah Hagler was barely above Junior Middleweight at times. It led to Leonard teasing about a catchweight match in the early days. He was a middleweight thru and thru even as he aged, unlike many. This again supports Toney taking better punches at higher weights as he was struggling to make 160 in a big way.

Big fan of Lloyds. He reminds me a bit of Roy Jones Jr's style as a matter of fact.

To save another (in general, not to your good self) post i'm going to note here that Marshall beat Charles before he became the machine he would grow into. After the war break he came back filled out and physically matured and was a different kettle of fish, a far tougher proposition. He was still strikingly good prior but to add to this his camp did claim he went into Marshall with an injured hip and the way the fight played out that's extremely likely to be true, to put it mildly.

 

The 2nd Yarosz fight is viewed with suspicion.

Pittsburgh Post Gazette ."A good chunk of Uncle Sam's green lettuce reported to have changed hands on the outcome."
"A number of times he missed when there was no reason to" PPG.

" Marshall ,and whoever engineered the whole business,may pride themselves on the fact they were among the very few fighting men who came to Pittsburgh,and outsmarted everybody their friends included."
Pittsburgh State Commissioner after suspending them both.
Yarosz was managed by Joe Gould, friend of both Owney Madden and Dutch Shultz.

Marshall v Eddie Pierce. Marshall carried Pierce but overdid it and Pierce 3/1 got the verdict.
Marshall v Al Gilbert.Marshall was carrying Gilbert until the referee warned him to,"either start fighting or be disqualified".Marshall then kod Gilbert.
" I waited just long enough for him to display what he intended to do,I worked a lot of fights with Lloyd and knew he was not offering his best." The Referee.
Marshall v Oakland Billy Smith.
" It did look like Marshall went down of his own volition"
Jim Scott Berkely Daily Gazette.Scott said two sources close to the Oakland fight game,told him Lloyd took a dive.An insider had evidently a last minute bet of $1,500 on a Smith ko,and thats a red flag given Marshall was a 2/1 favourite. Murderers Row. Springs Toledo.

 

Cheers, yes, as I said I had No Doubt about such claims as Boxing is B.S on far, far too many levels, but Documentation is So, So Important.

You may have read me say this before, 'one' of my Biggest Boxing Regrets, I was in Sacramento California for a few days in 1982, had I only known Lloyd Marshall lived there.

Mercy, Lloyd Marshall is one of my Favourite fighters and arguable the Greatest H2H Super Middleweight (Middle cum L-HW), of ALL TIME!

 

Weight not an issue here. I like Hagler against any middleweight

 

Marv indeed told me and my sister that he was hurt in Willie Monroe I, but unfortunately, as also happened with some World Wide Wrestling Federation cards for television at the Philadelphia Spectrum during the 1970's, there was a six inch winter snowstorm there on Tuesday, March 6, 1976. During the 1970's, this was crippling in that city, and the film crew couldn't get to the Spectrum. In fact, only 3,459 showed up. For their pivotal rubber match there on Tuesday, August 23, 1977, there were 8,169. (Even more than the estimated turnout for Frazier-Bonavena II, and that was a HW Title fight.)

Much more in line with the attendance for MMH's other legendary clear weather 1970's appearances at the Spectrum, 6,167 turned up on Tuesday, January 13, 1976 for Boogaloo I, 14,930 on Thursday, August, 23, 1978 with Philly's beloved Bad Bennie Briscoe, Marv's definitive stick and move outing as a cutie, trailing only Escalera-Everett at 16,109 for Spectrum attendance [as popular young local Jerome Artis supplied excellent commentary - Artis defeated SRL as an amateur], but MMH-Cyclone does not quite fit at 3,564, probably because Cyclone had been wiped out in one by Bad Bennie a few months earlier. Hagler was Cyclone's headliner finale on what was otherwise not a particularly strong card. Nobody in Marv's family ever disputed the verdict in Monroe I. Both promoter J. Russell Peltz and Hagler himself believed The Worm would've dethroned Monzon on that night.

Prior to Hearns and Mugable, MMH said Cyclone's hook just after the bell was the hardest punch he was hit by, and he just shoved Gene away, as you can see on the film. After he retired, he said it was Hearns and Mugabe. My guess is that the first round bomb with which peak Tommy fractured his right on Marv's head was the hardest single shot Hagler ever took. It stiffened Duran into a face plant, but I did not see Marv's knees dip. (I literally define dipped knees as a buckle. By this particular and explicit standard of mine, I never saw that happen to Jerry Quarry's knees either.)

By far, the most hard shots MMH absorbed were in his final win over the absolute best Mugabe ever brought into the ring. (Let's face it. The Beast even made Frank "The Animal" Fletcher timid. Only Hard Rock Green had scoffed at Mugabe's power although he was simply far too badly cut to finish out the last minute and a half. I don't the Beast could've hurt peak Hamsho either.)

Yes, John was a natural 154 pounder, but that meant he absolutely wasn't weight drained in any way for Marv at 157 pounds. The Beast said the hardest shot he nailed Hagler with was a sixth round right uppercut but that Marv barely wobbled from it. So I guess JT, that we can isolate that first round Hearns right and Mugabe's sixth round right uppercut as the two hardest punches he ever took, with Cyclone's hook being the third. (I don't think he ever gave Bad Bennie a chance to test his power on that chin.)

JT, we've typically have very strong disagreements since i originally arrived here under my inaugural user name in April 2007 (before a hiatus of over a decade, starting in June 2012), and sometimes in very high spirited and colorful, provocative, hopefully entertaining ways, and I hope to continue that with you in the future, yet to the rarefied standard of this vintage forum, never in a disagreeable way, but to the level of gentleman you represent. We have never insulted one another except in clear satirical and facetious jest, which I'd like to express to younger and newer members is proper debate and discussion.

Previously Dick was floored by Griff despite having a nine pound weight advantage and while nobody ever questioned Emile's power, he was nonetheless a WW/JMW, whereas Tiger was about to go to 175.

JT, for what it's worth, that first career knockdown Dick sustains comes at 23:15, courtesy of a left-right from Emile, and while Tiger immediately bounces back up, he does seem to be in a bit of distress after rising. (And Griff's left hook at 23:39 does look to me like another near knockdown, even though it's obvious the canvas also appears a little slick. 23:52 appears to me to be a duck from another right though, not a buckle.):

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Based upon this admittedly tiny ninth round snippet from Griffith-Tiger I, I must rate Hagler's chin as superior to Dick's. I just can't see Emile putting MMH on the deck.

Well, I dunno, JT. Steroids certainly didn't enhance the punch resistance of either RJJ or Morrison. Toney simply had a vastly superior chin to those two, and in the past I have strongly touted the integrity of his punch resistance. I posted before the fact that he'd withstand Samuel Peter well when virtually everybody else was absolutely certain James would be quickly annihilated, and yes, it was in connection to my assertion that Hagler had a true HW chin on Toney's level. (I do agree that Marv shouldn't have moved up in weight though. After their rivalry, while MMH was Champion, Boogaloo hurt his body in sparring, and it made the news. Hagler admittedly did not have HW resistance to the body.)

Indeed, it may have been after Marv came in at 157 for Hamsho I that Janks Morton (an SRL trainer starting in 1969, and like Gil Clancy, a college graduate and Truman State University athletic star [Gil boxed in college and obtained a Master's at NYU - college isn't that common a background for boxing trainers]), said, "If he can come in at 157, he can drop another three pounds!," and also said that if he weighed in right beforehand at 157 maybe SRL would accept the challenge, because at fight time, MMH might otherwise hydrate and nourish himself up to around 168. In fact, Marv won the Golden Gloves at LMW at age 18, but also was an AAU titlist at age 19 weighing 165. By full maturity, he was an absolute MW who primarily ate fish and skinless chicken during arduous training. Janks was very shewd. He knew Hagler would've been hopelessly weight drained and weakened.

Certainly, Marv always asserted he was much better at 160 or below than he was when above that weight, but was nonetheless optimal from 157 to 160, never below. (I have to perform very detail research, but I wouldn't be surprised if 157 was his lowest competitive weight as a professional, and MW was THE marquee lower weight division throughout his rise to to title. Benvenuti and Monzon made it extremely glamorous and compelling.

Of course! Tremendous competitor and it says very much that people can project him to defeat who I consider to be the GOAT LHW of the Queensberry Championship Distance era. (Who holds second place on that southpaw list prior to the elimination of the 15 round limit would be an interesting conversation.)

Lloyd was the last one to beat Freddie Mills before Mills dethroned Gus Lesnevich, knocking Freddie out in five rounds at that, but it was during an interval where he himself was getting owned by Ezz, the Mongoose, southpaw Bob Murphy and others. Horrible timing for such bad knockout losses.

Could he ever have become a champion? Iit comes down to whether or not he could get to Lesnevich through Moore (who knocked him out), Charles (who knocked him out 2X after getting stopped in eight himself), Burley perhaps (who he did get an SD over), Oakland Billy Smith (who stopped him in nine), and his only undefeated years were 1938 and for his two outings in 1948. But does he dethrone Lesnevich if Gus actively defends between 1942 and 1946?

 

At least 3 of those fighters were non-punchers who lacked the power to take advantage of any durability/stamina issues.

Brouillard was a puncher, but was well past his prime by that time & was always somewhat vulnerable to being outboxed even on his best day. Even so, he still managed to reach Marshall & drop him once or twice in their fight.

In between, Marshall was also overwhelmed twice by the firepower of Ceferino Garcia, who was really no more than a jr.MW.

 

Yes we've been moaning for years over that snowstorm - an immense shame. Monroe's performance would have been something to see.

Back off Boogaloo!!!!!! The memories!! Monroe flogged the crap out of Hagler that night, the decision has never been doubted. I'd kill to see it.

I've always said it, Hearns in no way hit Hagler with the right hands like he did Duran. He hit Duran at virtually full extension and my god did that punch explode. The right hands Hagler took were hard, but not in the class of what Duran received.

While Hearns didn't land his absolute best Sunday punch Mugabi sure did, totally agree. Hagler walked thru his bombs as if they were jabs. Hamsho, yes, he had a cast iron chin until it was cracked by Hagler in the rematch. He could sure take it. I'd bet solid money Hamsho would bully Mugabi into submission personally. He'd get in closer than Hagler and rough the hell out of him, elbows, low blows, butts, you name it hahahaha

I can live with those three punches. Monroe put on more of a beatdown than a splattering monster shots i reckon.

While i find some of your takes out of this world i'd never give you much grief. You believe what you say and are a real gentleman. I'd feel like an ******* and, well, would probably be one. If you were a nasty type it would be a different debate, obviously. I like how well read you are and how many insights you have and remember. Most of what you post i have memories of, and sometimes you jog a long forgotten memory which is always enjoyable.

Good point tho i believe my point sticks per not knowing until...........

But after reviewing your footage that canvas is RIDICULOUSLY slick. You can see him sliding leading up to the KD punch and he was sliding all the time in the footage i watched. IMO it wouldn't not have come close to a KD in normal conditions. The canvas was a disgrace.

Hagler could have easily been dropped in those conditions, IMO. Only better balance may have prevented it.

Those two are irrelevant in the big scheme of chin variables. I'd hate to be putting my life on Hagler taking the punches that Toney did at heavyweight, lets put it that way.

Yeah even a couple more pounds may have made an immense difference. Hagler was really disciplined fight time and non fight time so it's not like he had spare pounds sneaking around.

Good points and good questions too. It's all about being in the right place at the right time.

I had to omit some of your Boogaloo text as tho my replies were very short the quotes too me over the word limit hahaha

 

Garcia was a banger.

 

Marshall went the distance in the 1st Garcia fight.
Marshall wasn't floored in the 2nd Garcia fight, he was stopped on cuts.

Mugabi and Jackson were really light middles, nobody questions their power.

 

Ive never seen Marshall fight but he is in the IBHOF and beat La Motta.

Marvin Hagler was extremely hard to beat and he is considered one of the top middleweight champions of all time. He took punches from all time hitters like Fully Obel, Caveman Lee, Roberto Duran, Juan Roldan, Thomas Hearns and John Mugabi as if they were just throwing water on his face. He was Salvador Sanchez but at Middleweight in that sense. In fact, he was better because Sanchez was dropped by Juan Escobar while Hagler's knockdown vs Roldan was suspicious.

Based on that, but solely on that, I'll say Hagler. But Im not betting!

 

Eddie Muller in The Examiner said of the 1st Garcia fight.
"ten sensational hair raising rounds,and a great punching duel.
Marshall down 4 times Garcia staggered twice."
" In the return fight ,only 3 weeks later Lloyd was outpunching the Filipino,and was ahead on the judges cards,when he suffered another cut on his eye and the referee called it off."