Matter of fact who would win between usyk and Tyson?

See my recent post to explain further how Holyfield could drop 15-18 lbs. without it being so hard.
"In the current climate"? That is something different. Again he is unlikely to have done it due to much more acclaim & money being at HW.
A thread I linked described folks going back up to 220 for CW.
When guys do ~ 18 lbs. or occasionally more at much lighter weights & with much less water-rich muscle, Holyfield would have a signioficantly easier time of it.

I said that I do not see it done commonly at CW-but that ~9%, while above the average, is not nearly rare at any division.
I do not see why that discussion that describes guys going down from 220 "does nothing for me.
Not that it was intended to prove my point, just providing a range of opinions.

I cannot see how you think I was trying to cut any weight loss & regain in half. Can you elaborate?
I Googled "peepy bye" & no meaningful results-is that slang or a typo?

What I do not know-nor you I think-is precisely how common a 9% 34 hour shift is at CW.
It may well be less common in that division than others, IF so, I can only speculate upon the reasons.
Like maybe since CW is next to the only unlimited division, those who would naturally be near & over 220 lbs. are

This content is protected

This content is protected

Sometimes more.

I think you will concede that especially with much more money fame & glory potential at the marquee division...
Men who are borderline as *modern sized* HWs are likely to go "all in" at being around average size for today;'s HWs.

 

You have misunderstood me. Let me try explaining what I meant another way.

We are talking about whether Holyfield who weighed in at 218lbs could make 200lbs at that same weigh in and still compete to the same standard, or very close to it, the next night, correct? I.e. Holyfield was 218lbs for Tyson 2. Assuming the weigh in was around 12 noon on the Friday and the fight around 11pm on the Saturday, what do you think he would have weighed on fight night?

He didn't cut to make 218lbs, but most men of that size will weigh 2 or 3 more pounds on the evening than at lunch time. Holyfield will have had a calorie surplus diet between the weigh in for Tyson 2 and fight night. I've said I'd guess him at 220-224lbs on fight night. So, for me, we are talking about Holyfield from Tyson 2 who:

1) Was 218lbs at the weigh in
2) Was likely around 220-224 on fight night
3) And speculating whether he could have - A) Made 200lbs for the weigh in; B) Rehydrated back to the same 220-224lbs by fight night weight; and C) Still been in 100% fighting condition.

Such dehydration and rehydration isn't unprecedented, but it's an outlier and I think far less likely than likely.

Does that make sense now?

 

Nothing can beat prime Tyson not even a gorilla. Just ask Sangria

 

The thread you linked had one single post regarding cruiserweights fight night weights and it was pure speculation with ZERO cold hard facts which i stated from the start was my currency i.e. the link was exactly the sort of innuendo i wanted to avoid. "Opinions" are like asses - everyone has one. Opinions aren't the request. One person in your link speculated rehydration to 210-220 which in the big scheme of things is a huge variance top to bottom and an obvious guess. I'm shocked it was even put forward TBF.

It couldn't have been more simple to follow and probably can't be made more clear. At this point it just doesn't matter.

The crux of the matter is the claim was made Holyfield would be dropping from 218 and rehydrating to 218 in the current era. Holler back when you find conclusive evidence of a cruiserweight rehydrating to 218, preferably multiple accounts of it as a rare one off or even two far from cements the likelihood of Holyfield doing it fight in fight out.

I reiterate - i don't believe Holyfield would be fighting at cruiserweight today and rehydrating to 218 odd. If he did choose to fight at cruiserweight it's far more likely his rehydration would be about 210 or maybe even less.

Holyfield was described as "cruiserweight sized" for his wins over Tyson. This "cruiserweight sized" Holyfield also went 24 rounds with Lennox Lewis and as an old man gave the 310 pound 7 foot tall Valuev a run for his money. Of course he'd be fighting at heavyweight.

That's not the conversation at this point however. We've ascertained Holyfield wouldn't even be fighting at cruiser but....the conversation is bolded above and again, come back when you have some carved in stone examples of 218 pound rehydrations from cruiser.

 

Hi Mike.
Honestly, I am passed caring.......
stay safe buddy.

 

Usyk apparently didn't but we have plenty of examples of guys rehydrating similar amounts.
At light heavyweight I found the following rehydration weights at basementgymboxing
2018
Bivol 181 Pascal 188
Bivol 184 Chilemba 189
Kovalev 185 Alvarez 187
2015
Kovalev 183 1/2 Mohammedi 180 1/2
Kovalev 189 Pascal 185
Chilemba 185 Lepikhin 182
2014
Jack 183 Sierra 200
Kovalev 188 Hopkins 182
Kovalev 185 Caparello 185
Kovalev 183 Cedric Agnew 187
Pascal 185 Bute 184
2013
Stevenson 189 Bellew 190
Kovalev 181 Sillah 185

It looks like the average is closer to 10 pounds but a number of guys rehydrate 14 pounds and the record is a whopping 25 pounds. I think the evidence points to Holyfield being able to dry out to 200 if he wanted to. He was only 215 in fight 1 so that's just 15 pounds of water weight

 

JT was doubting the Holyfield that weighed in at 218lbs (which, as per my posts in this thread would have likely seen him 220-224lbs on fight night) could have made 200lbs. You've just cited 26 weight gains, one of which are 18lbs or more, let alone 20-24lbs. In an attempt to contradict JT's position, you've done a rather smashing job of reinforcing it.

 

Just as importantly he stated he'd rehydrate to that, and i quote, "215/218".

"My point was Tyson lost to a guy who in Usyks era could have made cruiserweight and then rehydrated to 215/218."

In the big scheme of things common sense tells us Holyfield would not have been fighting Cruiserweight and most certainly not at the Tyson fights career stage because he has a helluva more ambitious than that. He was fighting huge men across his career and when near shot, a guy bigger than them all. But he didn't fully claim he would be (tho he may have been thinking it, we will never know) so we've played with the likelihood of him doing what was stated.

I've provided official pics in recent history showing Usyk rehydrated to about 208 and a couple of opponents to the same or even less. A rehydration from 200 to "215/218" at cruiserweight sure don't seem like the norm when a guy like Usyk is doing half that. Even if one got found it's looking extremely fair to say, at this point, well that's a BIG exception. Not one example has even been given yet. The request seems incredibly different to decipher as i have been given everything but what was asked for, even gossip.

The other huge flaw in his argument is that he is talking up Usyk's chance because Tyson was beaten x 2 by what he termed above, a cruiserweight. The thing is if one are trying to leverage on any version of Tyson outside his short peak you are being disingenuous. He accused DP of cherry picking Tyson's prime then comes up with Holyfield LOL

 

Years ago I read about his 360x10. No mention of his heart rate.
In any event, a 480 one rep max is extremely impressive. Holyfield was a strong dude.

 

"A year ago, when Holyfield began his run for Tyson's title, he could bench-press 190 pounds. Today he's 33 percent stronger than he was last year, says Tim Hallmark, Holyfield's physical-fitness guru. He does 10 repetitions with 360 pounds after his pulse rate has risen to 180 or 190 beats per minute. A football player can do 360 pounds, but that is with his normal heart rate. If you get his heart rate up to 180 or 190 and tell him to do 360, he'll look at you like you're crazy. There is a tremendous strength decrease as the heart rate increases. He won't be able to do it."
https://vault.si.com/vault/1989/07/...o-mike-tyson-with-his-ko-of-adilson-rodrigues

 

Yes, i understood the discussion is about whether the Holyfield who weighed in at 218lbs for Tyson 2, could have weighed in at 200lbs instead, rehydrated and weighed the same on fight night, without affecting his performance.

My point is the Holyfield who weighed in at 218lbs for Tyson 2 would have likely been 220-224lbs on fight night, so the rehydration is even more extreme than 18lbs. What would you estimate he weighed on fight night for Tyson 2?

I agree with you JT, Holyfield was fighting at HW for the greater financial, and possibly legacy, rewards. I also agree he'd have been an outlier had he been able to - 1) Weight in at 200lbs for Tyson 2; 2) Weight the same as he actually did on fight night; 3) Fight to the same standard.

I'd go as far to say as all those 3 occurring would be extremely unlikely.

 

Agree on every point Greg.

 

OK thanks for showing us this!
I previously said Holyfield is better at reps so would not project out to 480 in the 1 rep max-but this being able to have such strength when at about his maximum possible heart rate-very unusual.
I assume he could not do more or significantly more at rest, so I wonder how much the PEDs helped him with this capacity of such strength when so aerobically taxed?

 

It is more than most gain, but your own statistics do not show it to be an outliar-more than average, but not at all rare.
If near 1/3 of a sample size is an outliar, then being 6' tall is easily an outlier
"in the U.S. population, about 14.5 percent of all men are six feet or over. Roughly 1% of US women are 6 feet tall or taller. The equivalent height cutoff for US men (only 1% of population taller) is about 6ʹ4″.

But if he would be significantly effected, that is a reasonable question.
Do we know how many who lose & regain 10% of body weight have it noticeably impact them?
I have not heard this is usualfor those who rehydrate that much-but admit I do not know.

Still you do acknowledge that someone with a higher % of muscle is more likely to be less effected?
(& of course likely to be able to lose more).
The 35 hours you just postulated makes a signifcant difference as compared to 24.
And I would say even if we had the same Greek God upper body as Holyfield (actually his neck & traps are disproportionate/PEDs/more androgen receptors...
Because he had elite trainers & nutritionists, we do not.

Anyway it is a matter of degrees.
We slightly differ in what would be very difficult & enervating to do.

Make Holyfield less muscular-like when he was weighing no more than the late 180's as a CW...
Or do not give him the science & help he had...
I would be inclined more in your direction.

 

The "come back to me when you have exactly what I demand" is a high-handed way to talk to someone.
I do not need to provide this to speak up-any more than you need to address my points about how it is easier to rehydrate that amount when weighing more & muscular, thus clearly it is not overwhelmingly difficult to do-& I provided reasons why CWs will likely not choose to do this involving being motivated & rewarded for fighting at HW-for me to deign to entertain you lol!

However it would be better if you did address these points-just like it would be good to actually explain what you slaim is so simple-I did njot "cut in half" what Holyfield had to regain.

If Holyfield was "CW sized" when fighting at HW, that would suggest CWs tend to weigh what he did right? Or little in ring difference.
Actually I think his upper body was bigger than most CWs, & his legs? Smaller. Tale of the tape supports the latter-& I wonder if it did not minimize his torso, but you can easily see he was not proportionate above & below.

Holyfield would not stay at CW due to the money fame & his ego wanting to be HW champion-which would be fine without the PEDs.
But when there are complaints of guys being weight bullies gaining as much or *more* than 18 lbs. at lighter divisions-from our website... "its Bull**** how chavez can rehydrate to cruiserweight in a middleweight contest ... What weight would a Margarito fight be at? These guys seem way to small ..."

Then someone losing a smaller % of his weight, less total weight, & having more muscle (& great trainers + motivation) should be able to do it without a lot of trouble.
Even the Crawford video posted here would not have him suffering much if it was the same *percentage* of weight as Holyfield would have to do-& he has less water even proportionately due to less muscle.

But again, I do not know that it is at all common to go up & down ~ 10% as a CW.
However since guys who naturally weigh around 220 lbs. have significant incentive to fight at HW-bulk up a little bit for more attention & fortune.
Especially earlier in the history of the CW division-when HWs were a little smaller.