MAX BAER IN PLACE OF FOREMAN?

I think one jab may have caught him,good, hardly a disaster. Keeping his chin tucked so deep and his head low was good defensive reponsibility. He forced Primo to over reach, setting up the over hand bombs.

 

No. I already broke down the technical differences. The strategic differences are observable by watching both fights.

Loma uses the move as part of his overall befuddling tactics in concert with feints, angle shifts etc in order to overwhelm the fighter's defences and throw them off their game. Baer used it as a brute force tactic to manoeuvre Schmeling into a position where he can club him full force in the side of the head. They both take advantage of their own personal strengths and proclivities, Loma to outwit his adversary, Baer to impose his greater power on them and force a stoppage.

There's no personal bias in that reading, just basic common sense. Loma's aims are about as far as you can get from Baer's within the confines of the game.

Irrelevant? Yes, of course it is. I'm not going to criticise a fighter for throwing a jab, only a poorly executed and applied one. Same goes for any other orthodox move.

Yeah, except as I pointed out, they're not the same move or used in the same way. So the comparison was a forced one.

They're both examples of sloppy fighting in a prizefighting ring. So there's more than a remote similarity there.

That's clearly an overhand right.

https://streamable.com/az0jx

Again, you're focusing too much on the minutiae and ignoring the bigger picture. Foreman had his faults, of course he did. But he put it all together in a devastating and almost airtight offensive package which minimised a fighter's scoring opportunities and ring movement while maximising his own capacity for damage. That was key to his victory over Frazier in both fights.

If we ignore Baer's technical short comings what are we left with? A crude, somewhat crafty brawler with a penchant for dirty tactics who gives ground as much as he attempts to gain it, gives up his height against shorter fighters, and doesn't possess one half of the ring control Foreman had.

Foreman rarely gave opponents an opportunity to fight back or get into an offensive rhythm. Baer let them do it all the time. Against Frazier that'd be suicide.

And you're going to have to learn to get past this sticking point of insisting your observations and opinions are the correct ones. You thought Wilder was throwing a backhand in that gif you posted so clearly your observational skills leave a lot to be desired.

 

At no point did you break down the technical differences, just that one was fast and the other was slow. A heavyweight slower than a featherweight, who would have guessed?

No, both men had the same goal and I can explain it in one simple sentence. Use the forearm to blindside their opponent with a right hand.

No, relevant as I showed with your own quotes. You know that's what I meant.

Really you didn't point that out. You wrote a great deal on this "forearm" and even if your personal readings are to be took at face value, nothing you said excludes them from being the same maneuver.

Well let's break this down.

https://media.giphy.com/media/KX94VO55eckY8/giphy.gif
-Baer manages to chase down an opponent literally running scared from him, and connect with a left hook/right cross combination that sends him to the canvas. Carnera only saves himself by breaking the rules and actually crawling between the ropes instead of getting up. Baer's speed and finishing instinct is on point here, he's of course perplexed by Carnera trying to escape the ring on his hands and knees, as anyone would likely be.


https://media.giphy.com/media/3sHlSR2v61FIY/giphy.gif
-You blame Baer for this entanglement. Saying he tumbled out of control. Any objective viewer would note it's the massive Primo that falls forward and drags Baer down with him. If a towering 270 man falls on you, I'm not sure what else one can really do.

https://media.giphy.com/media/cL0T5ntqtWGMU/giphy.gif
-Once more, you blame Baer for this entanglement, saying he tumbled out of control. This isn't as clear cut as the example above, as Baer's aggression is a clear trigger. However, it's obvious Carnera is in bad shape and is having balance issues, it's noted his ankle was injured from a KD. Carnera has trouble putting down his left foot, and once more, starts to go down first, and his left leg is inside Baer's legs as he goes down, tripping him up.

Can you be objective? Can you distinguish these incidents from Wilder missing two wild punches and having to be grabbed by the official as he tumbles into a corner?

This is your "head in the sand" approach to arguing in a nutshell. You know very well, I wasn't calling the punch a back hand but the follow up swipe Wilder sneaks in. So why play ignorant, what does one gain from that?

We aren't talking about this alleged "all the time" we were discussing Baer vs Schmeling as a great finish. Not once did you compliment Baer for doing something you suddenly find so important when confronted with Foreman's "bad" technical form.

It's about you demonstrating the ability to own up to your short comings for an argument to progress.

He certainly throws a back hand, you just chose to ignore it, because you think...ignorance..makes you smarter?

Nothing I said here is refutable. So from here on out, I will not reply to you unless you can:

1. Admit you failed to produce the clips of contemporary fighters you said would counter my claim of Baer's speed.
2. Admit Wilder attempted a back hand after the overhand right.

 

I like Joe by knockout around the 12th in a typical rough Frazier fight

 

I broke down the differences in post #116. Broadly speaking there's a degree of physicality in Baer's move that isn't present in Loma's. He pushes Schmeling off to the side where he's got a better angle to launch his right hand into Schmeling's face. It's a move very similar to Fury's against Cunningham, though not quite so dirty. Loma doesn't even make much contact with his opponent since the move is primarily a method to hide the approach of his scoring shot.

I take into account speed differences between weight classes. The Baer forearm was slow period. Want to see a good example of a Loma like forearm from a heavyweight? Watch the Wlad vs Shufford fight.

https://streamable.com/vi5lm

You wanted to make out that Baer was an ATG bodypuncher and when I asked you to back that up you gave me a bunch of average looking bodyshots. That's what I was responding to, not the fact that they were a commonly utilised movement.

You see me laying into Louis? He's as textbook as you can get.

I've done so in numerous posts. If you persist in ignoring that or misrepresenting what I say then there's little more I can do.

If you want to break the Washington stoppage down correctly then the ref actually grabs Wilder between the first and second shots, and it's the momentum of his body that sends Wilder into the ropes. That's if you want to be scrupulously objective. It's also pertinent to note that Washington stumbled into the ropes on the opposite side of the ring after he walked off, so the stoppage was a correctly called one. That's not immediately obvious from the footage.

This is all kind of by the by, however. Wilder's stoppage was sloppy and Baer's stoppage was sloppy. Tediously pedantic breakdowns aren't going to change that.

You mean the arm wave he does after his opponent has already hit the canvas? That's what you meant? Jesus Christ.

Want me to construct a five paragraph breakdown of why those two moves are subtly different or do you want to, you know, just use your common sense for once?

It's not a great finish. It's a sloppy finish of a tired and hurt smaller man. And it has little bearing on how a Baer Frazier fight would go down, which is the original argument in this thread.

Foreman won the Frazier fight by controlling Frazier from the off, not taking him into deep waters. Had that been his strategy then Frazier would have been in with a great chance. Instead he imposed his size and strength on Frazier and bludgeoned him into submission before he could get a chance to get going. A completely different state of affairs from the Schmeling fight.

I think we've reached an impasse here.

Any fair minded and objective observer who's been following this thread will see that the clips I've put forward to support my points and the observations and conclusions I've drawn from them have been correct. I feel very confident of that.

In order for someone to do the same for yours they'd have to be partially blind, possessed of faulty time sense, and devoid of a functional brain. I really wish those were insults.

If you want to end the discussion now then be my guest. Thanks for playing. But the only way you'll ever get me to accept your outrageously skewed assertions is if you put a gun to my head. Till then 2 plus 2 still equals 4, thank you very much.

 

Wha...

Two of these clips feature a fighter pushing his opponent's head with a forearm. One doesn't feature a forearm to an opponent's head at all. Even at 1/4 speed, Wlad does not connect with a forearm, he uses his left hand to smack down Shufford's right arm. Embarrassing.

https://streamable.com/ih5jy

https://streamable.com/slpvh

https://streamable.com/vi5lm

https://www.viralviralvideos.com/wp...rray-chuckle-funny-laugh-laughing-LOL-GIF.gif


"I didn't throw a back hand, it was an arm wave."

The Parker clip really helped illustrate my point. Baer's hands are quick or quicker than the fastest punching heavyweight today. Good job.

https://media.giphy.com/media/bXx1n2VTJJfsQ/giphy.gif

https://streamable.com/f05a2

 

For someone who refuses to reply to me you sure are persistent, eh? Mayhap you're full of empty threats?

I won't bother to go through the clips once again. You can see my thoughts in previous posts, and you're only going to see what you want to see at any rate. Suffice to say your interpretations of the footage are, once again, way off base.

But hey, just for you, here's a second example of Wlad performing the movement. Which glove does he slap down this time?

https://streamable.com/wd4vg

And now you completely lose the plot. Come on son.

Uh huh.

https://streamable.com/amrgu

 

This is fascinating. Are you capable of admiting there is no forearm connecting with Shufford's head in ths clip?

https://streamable.com/vi5lm

At this point I'm just looking for anything that can show me I didn't just waste my time arguing with a sociopath.

 

Are you capable of admitting that your clip purporting to show Wilder throwing a backhand was a complete fail?

 

Advancing into a big man's punches while making virtually no effort to parry, slip, or deflect any of them is most certainly not good defensive responsibility. All's well that ends well, and it's clear that you're a really big fan of Baer's, but come on. Baer didn't need to set up bombs to land them on Primo. He landed the most important bomb (the first one), not because he lured Primo into reaching by leaving his face completely exposed but rather because Primo ineptly backed away from Baer's advance in a straight line with his chin held high and his glove held low.

 

I'm not really sure why you asked for a clip of Wilder throwing a back hand in the first place, it doesn't really prove anything.

Sheehan is a total tomato can, the guy danced around Wilder and tried to clown him. Wilder got mad, yelled something at him before hitting him, and clearly didn't make much of an effort to control the follow through of his right hand. Wilder usually pulls it back like Kelly Pavlik, but in this instance, swings it back in the direction of his falling opponent. Not a big deal to me, something I completely forgot about until you asked for an example, and this fight came to my mind.

I don't even have a dog in this part of the argument as Wilder throwing a back hand against a trash talking tomato can in a gym fight doesn't really amount to anything. You asked for the example, and I provided one. I can't deny what's there in the footage. Even you see it, you just want to hilariously call it an "arm wave"

Which doesn't surprise me, as you equate Wlad smacking an opponent's arm down with his glove to a "forearm to the head" It's just becoming increasingly apparent you are sociopath and arguing with you over anything, not just Baer, is a waste of time. Wlad examples are so blatantly not what you claimed, that it seems like a sick attempt to draw me into another argument.

 

That sounds absolutely horrible. Then you see the clip and Primo misses several jabs against a crouching Baer. The one that Primo manages to get in good, doesn't do much damage because...for the 100th time, I observed that Baer had his head and chin tucked so well.

This is my last time explaining this, I don't care how many times you bring it up like a crazy person. People make out like Baer did absolutely nothing to protect himself and just willingly ate shots, but in the HD footage, I was surprised to see he had his chin tucked in really tight when advancing or looking to exchange, and I mentioned that it reminded me of Golovkin and even Carl Forch.

These men don't move their head much and take punches, but they protect their chins none the less and avoid facial damage. It's something a lot of fighters forget to do and can be more responsible than head movement. You see fighters trying to move their head all time and get whacked and hurt if the timing is wrong, or fighters in the heat of an exchange, leave their chin out.

Carnera was actually leaning and throwing a jab when Baer hit him with the first right.

https://ibb.co/gjuUbv

So, are you going to be a sociopath too, or can you admit you are simply mistaken about something that is clear as day on film?

 

And yet you persist in arguing with this so-called sociopath despite endless assertions that you'll no longer respond to me unless I submit to your warped views. What does that make you, I have to wonder?

I asked for the backhand example, as you well know, because you refused to believe that Baer was a sloppy fighter. I was pointing out that Wilder, as sloppy as he is, has never resorted to so blatant and awful a move as Baer's backhand against Schmeling. You've still not provided the clip, even though you refuse point blank to believe you haven't done so. Yet more evidence of your stunning inability to judge video footage accurately coupled with your overweening arrogance in thinking yourself correct.

I won't break down why Wilder isn't throwing a backhand in that clip because anyone with eyes can see that he isn't. As you're finally starting to understand, however, it really isn't important what he's doing since the point isn't that Wilder isn't sloppy but that Baer is (a key reason, among several, why he won't beat Frazier, just to return to the original debate for a change). I won't bother with the Wlad clip either, since I require at least some degree of common sense when arguing any opposing position and you clearly possess none.

This debate's run its course anyway. Since you consider responding to me a waste of time I suggest you stick to your word for once and keep schtum on the reply.

 

No the argument has been over and it will continue to be until you can prove you are not a sociopath.

Nonsense. One of my first posts to you in this thread.

"Baer looked sloppy because he had the durability, reach, and athleticism to sell out. He didnt care if he missed or looked crude, he knew he had to land bombs so thats what he tried to do. It wasnt pretty but his methods were effective"

As you know, I don't think the backhand is evidence of anything other than Baer's ability to sneak in a helpful foul.

If you believe it's evidence of incompetence that will leave him at the mercy of Frazier, that's your believe, nor does it shed any light on your bizarre request for a Wilder back hand that you stubbornly **** on anyway. But okay then...

Oh darn. I was looking forward to your explanation of how a vertical smack across a guy's arm is really a horizontal forearm to his head.

 

Wow, you're shameless! The video shows that Carnera was leaning away from Baer's punch when it landed, just as he had backed away from several of Baer's previous punches--in a straight line with his hands low and chin high. He clearly sees the punch coming and has aborted his jab to defend against it. But Baer's punch lands anyway, because Carnera had terrible form, was relatively uncoordinated, had a poor sense of distance, and demonstrated atrocious defensive reflexes--not because of some shrewd set up. Also, Baer lands that punch from the outside; it has next to nothing in common with the other sequence in which he slowly advances on Carnera (unprotected) face-first to close the distance before crouching and throwing jabs to the body.

I'm glad to read that you're done repeating yourself becuase no matter how many times you say it, Baer's tucking his chin and lowering his head a bit while walking straight into a series of Carnera's punches, face first, does not make his approach sound or defensively responsible. https://streamable.com/smszb