Max Baer in the post-Ali unification tournament

Have to say I'm with you on this. I am staggered at the reputation Baer has when all I see on film is an unskilled fairground tough man.

There has to be something I'm not seeing as so many people rate him highly but neither his record, nor the footage I've seen of him instils a shred of confidence that he would win one match up in this tournament. Frazier in the 60s is way too much for him. Max hasn't even got a puncher's chance. Joe's high energy bob and weave is way too much for Max who had neither the hand speed nor co-ordination to land much of note, from everything I've seen of him. And if Max could floor Carnera 11 times without finishing him, I don't see him stopping Joe.

It's a moot point though as I don't see him getting to that stage.

 

Agreed. It's the lack of uppercut that would let Frazier do exactly what he wants.

Max had a big right hand but he threw it like a fast bowler in cricket, sometimes complete with 'here it comes' run up. That might have landed on tall, upright guys but Joe Frazier, when smokin', was about 2ft lower than Max's preferred impact zone. And how much will Max want to throw the right that leaves his whole right flank vulnerable to a left hook?

Bear in mind, too, that Joe slipped Ali's jabs. Perhaps the single quickest punch in heavyweight history. Joe'd have time to sing us all a quick song while he got out of the way of Baer's right hand.

 

It also doesn't help that Baer can't jab to save his life and has no clue how to dictate range and use his very long arms to his advantage. Frazier would step in within milliseconds either before those big wind up shots or after they sail right past his head.

 

Slugger vs swarmer.

Plain and simple, and Baer has the necessary key attributes in spades, i.e. power durability and reflexes.

Not a dynamic that particularly turns on a good uppercut, but I am sure that Baer knew how to throw one.

The bottom line is that Frazier would have to come to Baer, and that is going to be Christmas for Baer!

 

Baer could jab.

He just mostly chose not to.

Doesn't matter either way, because that punch won't be important.

 

Hang on a minute, Jan.

Frazier only lost to two men, both consensus top ten ATGs. Yet you pick him to lose to Baer whom you 'are sure .. knew how to throw an uppercut' and for whom the jab 'won't be important'.

Really interested how you actually see Max doing that just by going in and taking everything Joe threw while hitting him back hard. What punches do you see him using that would be effective against Joe's crouch if he's not using either the jab or uppercut? Joe's not there for Max's telegraphed right; he'd be two foot beneath it. And I don't think Max has the speed or co-ordination to time Joe with a left hook. What else is there apart from Baer's patented back hand right?

 

You're being overly simplistic on purpose.

You can't just put in x boxer into any slugger vs swarmer equation and expect that the slugger does well like it's a fool proof formula.

What reflexes? Baer got hit on more times than a blonde in a dark alley.

He had power, but primarily in one hand. And it was a misguided missile, a Ferrari with an amateur driver.

You're "sure" Baer knew how to throw an upper cut? Evidence? I don't operate on assumptions. I'll even take a description of a fight from a book.

The first thing you'll want to bring to a fight with Frazier is a good jab. It kept Ali in the fight despite his stylistic disadvantage as an outside guy who lacks destructive power. He made Frazier reset and expend energy using head movement to get close.

Contrary to popular belief, Foreman's jab was a big factor in his fight with Frazier as well. He wasn't simply winging power punches.

Without a jab to deter Frazier, Baer would find that Frazier gets within his preferred range almost anytime he desired. Especially if Baer isn't fighting tall or using uppercuts. If he chooses not to jab, he is choosing to make the fight 10x harder on himself. Without a jab his wild right hand becomes that much easier to dodge and counter.

 

It depends on how you rate Baer’s career results anyway - but the usual reply to the observation that Baer looks poorly skilled on film pivots itself on context rather than direct analytical breakdown of Max the fighter.,

You will often hear/read:-

“IF he was so bad, how did he manage to achieve what he did?”

and/or

“Just imagine how much greater Baer would’ve been if only he applied himself.”

I would reply that he simply got by due to 1) natural physical equipment that was generally far superior to the opposition as at the time 2) a cast iron chin 3) possession of the single offensive weapon that was his crudely delivered but exclusively powerful right hand.

Minimal stuff but just enough for Maxie to succeed exactly as he did, no more, no less.

Poorly skilled fighters aren’t a joy to watch in any circumstance but I find Baer almost literally unbearable to see in action (no pun intended).

Particularly in view of how much greater, all round advantage he might’ve enjoyed IF he had properly utilised his god given physical gifts in height, reach etc and refined the delivery of his right hand.

It literally seems that even IF a fighter deliberately intended to look as crude as possible - he couldn’t do any better (or worse than Baer).

So, for all that Baer wasn’t, his achievements are notable - essentially based on very unpolished, raw materials.

Perhaps that’s being factored into his rating in relative terms - but then there is also the fact that he was a handsome, well built and very much liked, devil may care, screwball.

 

Actually, I always felt that Foreman’s jab was duly acknowledged as being significant in 1) keeping Joe off 2) putting Joe in perfect strike range. George also achieved same via the power shove - neither of which I can see Baer bringing to the table anyway and I agree, without employment of either method, Maxie is going to be at Joe’s mercy. Maxie might just want to get Joe to at least like him before first bell. LOL.

 

Janitors go to method for defending a fighter who looks clumsy and has a limited resume is to say that they must have been doing something right if they beat the champion and multiple ranked fighters at the time. This was his strategy in the Corbett vs Tua discussion.

It kinda falls apart when Frazier not only looks better on film, he also quite clearly has the better resume than Baer having beaten Ali which is better than all of Baer's best wins combined.

A direct analytical break down would be a suicide mission when attempting to back Baer against Frazier. The options in this thread are more limited than Baer himself.

 

I'm not sure why people are getting worked up about Janitor picking Baer to beat Frazier when he didn't.

He just said Baer has a stylistic advantage, but you'd probably still pick Frazier due to his much better consistency

 

I could see Quarry beating him, perhaps, but I’d favor Baer in a slugfest.

But if Patterson thought Ingo could bop, my lord at what would happen if Max ever landed that right hand just once. He might dribble Floyd on the canvas like a basketball.