Max Baer v.s James Jeffries

I agree. But the fact that there were no 210+ pound good sluggers other than Jeffries means that there's one category of fighters he wasn't tested solidly against. McVey might have done nicely, actually.

Even a 190+ lb. slugger like a prime Pat Killen, John L. Sullivan, Frank Slavin, or Peter Jackson would have added immensely to Jeffries' legacy. Sharkey and Fitz were each a bit too small, and Johnson wasn't a massive puncher.

 

Yeah, I agree with that. But for the ones who knows the game (like you), don´t rate/ judge a fighter´s chin because how much his opponents weighed. Like I wrote, it´s better to have Fitzsimmons and Sharkey in his record, than a Buster Douglas or a Hasim Rahman. But of course I understand your point, and agree with it!

 

I believe that there's some correlation between size and power. It's not as massive as many believe, but at the same time I'd be tempted to rate Rahman's power better than Sharkey because he was also a "puncher" and had a 60 lb. weight advantage.

 

Yeah, but you know it perhaps, I box myself, so I know about the weight thing. It´s an advantage, no doubt, but some overact it with it. It is called that mass * speed= power, but you can´t explain it so easy. I sparred with +270 lbs guys who won most of their fights by the way of KO and wasn´t hurt or shaky. One time I sparred a 195 lbs man who won only 3 fights by KO and he hurt me a bit. For me personally, I would prefer to fight Rahman, even right now, instead of Tom Sharkey...


what I wanted to say, is, that it´s not easy to describe it with the weight/power, but what I read here from some guys is just ridiculous, favouring Buster Douglas over Marciano because of his weight advantage (which is anyway almost just fat) for example...

 

This is an extremely important point that I think has gotten overlooked here. Jeffries - while certainly the more accomplished HW champion - did face mostly smaller fighters over whom he had great physical advantages. This would not be the case with Baer, and Jeff would have to face some heavy artillery in order to get his punches in. Could he take it?

Assuming Baer is at his best - say, the Baer of the Schmeling fight - he has a very good chance to win this fight on a late TKO, imo.

 

True.

But calling Jeffries chin great because he withstood lightheavies Sharkey and Fitzsimmons is a bit far fetched.

I give Baer a good shot in this match-up. Jeffries was fairly pre-historic in style and had problems with tiny fighters who could barely break an egg.

 

Yes but didn't a "LightHeavyweight" Braddock dethrone Baer? Jeffries would move around the ring & avoid Baer's clumsy rushes to hammer out a 15 round decision. Just a Braddock did Skill & technique over Brute force.

 

Jerries was one of the very few men I think could absorb Baers right hands and keep coming ,Baer too had an iron cghin but the strength and stamina are both with the Boilermaker here,thudding lefts into Baers midsection would weaken himand I dont think he could tie up Jeffries inside,Jeffries by late ko.

 

I would say it's the other way around, for the reason that in today's era, the best punchers actually are heavyweights, not lightheavyweights and middleweights.

Tiny gloves cause a lot more pain, bruises, cuts and other superficial damage, but not more knockouts. Because of the transition from bareknuckle to gloved boxing, they did not throw many combinations back then. Combinations are what causes most knockouts. Corbett had to invent the left hook (and he wasn't a puncher). The left hook is THE knockout punch.

For a knockout it is important to hit twist the head to turn off the brain temporarily. An 8 oz glove has a larger surface than a 2 oz glove which means most of its power will contribute to twisting the head whereas a bigger part of the power of the 2 oz glove will be absorbed by bone (breaking), skin (cutting) etc.


I do agree however that a "solar plexus" punch is more effective with tiny or no gloves. And of course the higher amount of cuts, bruises etc will lead to more stoppages (if the referees are not sadistic like they were back then), but we're talking about chin-related knockouts here.

 

While your post is well-argued, I must disagree. Knockouts do increase in sparring when smaller gloves are used--not just superficial damage, but knockdowns and knockouts. I'd guess that the same is true in prize-fights as well.

 

If he can hit him.

 

Extremely well expressed, and as Exhibit A, might I suggest the Luis Resto/Billy Collins Jr. fiasco (where scumbag Panama Lewis removed some stuffing from Resto's gloves). Collins complained to his father between rounds that it felt like Resto had sticks in his gloves, but although his eyes were very badly swollen, Collins went the distance. Resto was no power puncher. But he was a skilled enough fighter that he might have been expected to stop Collins, within the scheduled distance, using lighter gloves containing less padding, if the notion of smaller gloves producing more knockouts held true.

When smaller gloves are used, I believe that much greater vigilance would be applied to avoiding blows, rather than accepting them. It may be that larger gloves could produce more knockouts, simply because the tendency to allow punches to connect might be increased. Add this to the fact of a larger surface for modern gloves, and the incidence of brain damage is magnified. (This can be further aggravated by the inclusion of padded headgear. Contrast that with what the focus on avoiding punches must have been like in an era of 2 ounce gloves and no mouthguards. Back then, boxing really would have been the art of self defense.)

Concerning the question of the thread, I lean towards Jeffries. Max Baer didn't like it much when somebody stood up to his best shot, and I think that's exactly what Jeff would have done. I believe the Boilermaker's toughness would psycholgically do Maxie in early. He was rugged enough to go the distance, but Jeff's hook downstairs would have been ideally suited to exploit Baer's cross armed defense.

 

I would dispute this actualy. Jeffries developed into a good boxer and an excelent finisher later in his career.

Jeffries basicaly dose everything Baer dose better. Baer has a bit more power and that is about it.

 

Great example. Are we actually agreeing on something?:admin

But in sparring they use bigger gloves, usually 16 oz.

 

It's not the first time we've been on the same page about an issue.

My tendency is to fixate on the content of a post, not the individual who produced it. I expect we will have our fair share of agreements as well as disagreements, and that's the way things should be on a forum like this.:thumbsup