max baer vs ron lyle....

Four of the most overrated fighters on the board and just because they shared an era with Ali/Frazier/Foreman.

 

I think Jerry Quarry's resume pretty much speaks for itself.

 

Yeah, and it shows quite a clear gulf between himself and the likes of Ali and Frazier. They stopped him 4 out of 4 times.
He failed in his big title fight against Jimmy Ellis too, and Ellis hardly gets a mention.

 

This...

I mean, at his best Baer would beat Lyle......

 

True.

I think Baer would win because he was better, not bigger.

 

There's no denying that he fell very short when matched against the elite of his era, and while we're at it, we can ad Ken Norton to the list of guys you listed who outmatched him. But at the same time however, his resume and credentials trump those of a lot of contenders who never won a world title, and even a select few who did win a championship... He was in the ring's top 10 for 7 years, in their top 5 for 4 years, and top 3 for 2 years. That's a long time to maintain such high standing, especially considering the era that he was in.. These ratings were not undeserved either. Quarry was an extremely active fighter, rarely taking any significant time off, and constantly matched against quality opposition. During his career he beat prime versions of Shavers, Lyle, Foster, Mathis and an aged but still formidable Floyd Patterson. He was for the most part, a cruiserweight sized fighter with the tendency to cut and bleed, facing larger, stronger, more athletic men, and coming up with pretty good results most of the time. He had a variety of ways of beating you too.. He could blast you out early, out box you to a long decision or break you down late.. Very smart fighter with excellent counter punching ability, better than average defense and a lot of heart and good workrate. He is in my mind, one of the very best fighters to never capture the heavyweight crown.. In a less competitive era, he may have gone a bit further, perhaps even held a title... But I'm not even sure that I'd want to see him in that light.. I am actually quite fond of the role he played as being a supporting cast member for Ali, Foreman, and Frazier. In so doing he became a true testament to what a great era it was and how much depth it contained.

 

He was a good contender, I agree.:good
He had a fair degree of strengths and attributes (I'm not sure his defense was one of them, but the rest I'd agree with).

 

I was live for a few of Lyle's fights unfortunately 2 of them were against the Irishmen he was unlucky against Quarry and Cooney and he was pretty much dominated in both fights. Lyle's best win where there was a KO was against Shavers but Earnie ran out of gas after rocking Lyle as he did vs Stander,Mercado,Cobb,Holmes, and Earnie was already KO'd in 1 by Quarry so it was a win but not stellar and most of Lyle's fights were close decisions and not spectacular KO's (Lyle's effort against Foreman was impressive but Foreman was vulnerable and avoided most decent punchers up until then)....Baer had his share of inconsistencies but had his share of excellent fights and wins, (the Schmeling showed me a lot)...I like Baer to win and more than likely he lands a hard enough right hand to get Lyle out of there or stunned enough for a follow up....Baer by KO,TKO or UD

 

Baer was much bigger ? Are we simply making up facts to support our arguments ? Both were 6' 3" ... both weighted between 210 and 217 or so ... the difference is that Lyle fought much bigger guys and much better punchers ... a post Louis Galento, talk about shot .. still, Baer may have had a slightly better chin but Lyle had to me the far bigger heart ... Baer was always a front runner ... look how he quit against Louis, dogged it against Braddock and packed it in twice against Nova ... I love Baer as a colorful character but find him to be terribly over rated across the board ..

 

How do you actually use the losses to Quarry and Cooney in the same sentence without mentioning that Lyle was 39 at the time of the Cooney fight ? You really are a character.

 

Knowledgeable fans are well aware of this (as you demonstrate). Put a "W" against Patterson (albeit disputed), Mac Foster by stoppage, Lyle, dominate a peak in shape Mathis, Shavers in one, Spencer, Bodell in one with a single punch, Middleton, and even Zanon and London 2X on the resume of a black contender, and that contender would be very well remembered today. (As Jerry indeed is by the likes of Foreman, was by Frazier, and many others.)

Lyle is remembered well enough today for Bonavena, Ellis, Bugner, Shavers, Middleton 2X, Rondon, Kirkman and LeDoux. No non heavyweight champion from the ten year period spanning the late 1960s to the late 1970s had a clearly superior resume to Jerry in the HW division, including Ron.

JQ was dominated by two top five prime ATG HWs. His first bout with Smoke came at Frazier's physical peak (prior to Joe's ankle fracture after Ellis I). The second loss to Frazier came in Joe's smartest performance. No shame in that. Prime Ali took Jerry very seriously in 1972, coming in at just 216 after previously scaling 227 for Mathis and 226 for Mac Foster. JQ never had the luxury of dealing with an overweight and lazy Muhammad, and it should suggest something of how seriously the GOAT respected Jerry to have been in that kind of condition and preparedness. (Their rematch may have been Ali's best performance between 1967 and 1974.)

As was Lyle, Young and Shavers, JQ was simply a solid, solid contender, much more than the "Great White Hope" Cooney, Bobick and Kirkman were, either considered a real threat to beat virtually anybody going in, or actually producing the upset when expected to lose. (Again, Mac Foster, Bodell, Lyle, all of whom many expected to be put over at Jerry's expense.)

 

It is important to remember in factoring Lyle's career that he did not start till very late in age ... amateur back ground is so important as is getting an early start ... when you think of the great heavyweights from Johnson to Dempsey to Louis to Ali to Tyson they all started very young .... Marciano was considered ancient and he started five plus years younger than Lyle ... then there is not small mention of the fact he was almost stabbed to death in prison ... we endlessly hear how it impacted Cleveland Williams but rarely hear how a similar injury impacted Lyle .. that being said, the Lyle that was was an extremely powerful, murderous punching warrior ... I believe he showed far more grit and determination than Baer ever did ... Baer was a personality than made it through boxing ... he just as easily could have been an entertainer and never laced up the gloves .. Lyle was a fighter. This is why the more I think this one through, based on styles, I favor Ron ...

 

Ronny Lyle KO3 in a slugfest. :!:

 

You hit on a good point.

The longer the bout, the better Baer's chances.

I think Baer probably survives Lyle's early edge. His stamina carries him through.

I sure wouldn't bet money on this, though.

 

"He beat small HW like King Levinsky x 2 (W20 and KO2) and Tuffy Griffiths (KO7) among others."

Well, first place, Levinsky often went around 200 lbs--the same weight as Quarry.

But if you want big heavyweights

Primo Carnera 263 lbs --- ko 11
Jose Santa 244 lbs -----ko 10
Tony Galento 244 lbs-----ko 8
Walter Cobb 221 lbs -----ko 4

"outboxed by small HW's like Ernie Schaaf (203 & 209)"

The 6' 2" Schaaf was taller and heavier than Quarry who beat Lyle, and Peralta, who drew with him. Why is he small? Yes, and I know Lyle was green when he lost to Quarry. So was Baer when he lost to Schaaf.

Schaaf, by the way, is also taller and heavier than Shavers (6' 2" to 6' 1" and 209 to 206)

*Baer lost to small HW's--This is actually true, but why assume that Lyle, who was outboxed by Quarry, and barely got past an old Peralta, would have done better against smaller, faster moving, and more skilled opposition than he did against the big, but slow and out-of-shape, opposition he made his name against.

Baer did better against the big, slow guys also.