Max Baer vs Tommy Morrison

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BrutalForeman, Feb 19, 2018.


  1. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I confess that I don't understand what you mean by "a modern fighter".
     
  2. BUDW

    BUDW Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Max better jab,chin, equal power Max by ko
     
  3. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Tillis 42-22

    That's not below average. Below average is 31-33.

    You mean like 197lb Johnny Risko at 68-46? Oh, wait. He beat Max Baer.

    Carl Williams was 29-5 when he fought Morrison. That's WAY above average.

    He was also 6'4 and weighed 225lb.

    Little Tommy Farr 83-35-17 who weighed 208lb and who made Baer look like he was in a car crash with nothing more than a jab, was at the tail end of a long and gruelling career and was coming off losses to Braddock and Louis. And he still beat Baer in the same stretch of time.

    Comiskey was totally made for Baer. A smaller 207lb fighter who liked to brawl face first, and who, just like Schmeling, played straight into the larger, stronger man's gameplan by trying to slug it out.

    Y'see I have actually watched these fights.

    Just as I have watched Morrison's.

    Everything that you can criticize Tommy for I can double up for Max.

    There's no comparison in my mind. Morrison is streets ahead technically, he's bigger, he's faster and frankly I think he hits harder than Baer. He would win.
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    o_O

    :risas3::risas3::risas3::risas3::risas3:

    Sorry, I never got around to reading the rest of what you said.
     
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  5. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    By 80s HW standards it is, and the most important thing is where he was at in his career when Morrison beat him. Well, he had not had a noteworthy performance in 5 years, was 4-7 since 86, with not a single win over solid competition.

    Risko was Rated top 10 from 1926-1932.

    Baer traded wins with a top 10 staple as a 22 year old 2 year pro circuit fighter, while still reeling from the death of Frankie Campbell. Your point? Yes, Risko was 197 pounds. All fighters were lighter than, and we just have to accept that.

    This in no way changes the fact that:

    " Totally washed up. Some 3 years removed from the ratings. Was losing to nobodies."

    And Carnera was 6'5" 250 but you don't really care about size unless it suits your side of the argument.



    "Little" Tommy Farr was listed at 6'1" with a 78" wingspan, and was only 4 pounds lighter than Baer.

    Farr was 23 and 24 years old and at the peak of his career. I don't get why you are trying to portray him as being on a decline. 1936-1939 was his peak as a HW contender, rated inside the top5 3 out of 4 years. If that's not his peak, what is the alternative? lol Baer was actually the older fighter on the decline; coming into the fight with grueling injuries, so that's an interesting spin.

    The Braddock and Louis fights were competitive fairly controversial results that many observers felt Farr won. And it's not like Braddock wasn't the recently dethroned Champion, and Louis the reigning one.

    Farr used more than a jab, unlike Morrison, he was actually a proficient and durable technician. He was never stopped during his first career as a HW, despite facing Baer, Nova, and Louis in succession.


    So if we are using Baer's 220+ pound weigh ins now, he's the bigger man against Tommy.
    And Tommy was a brawl face first fighter. The only fighter he evaded was 45 years old and he had to literally turn his back and run from him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  6. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    Can we end this new myth of Tommy Morrison being an evasive fighter, please?

    [media]PimSDSU9nJ8[/media]
     
  7. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No. No, it's simply not mathematically possible. What you are doing is substituting your opinion for facts. A 42-22 record is well above average in any era, even 2000bc. That's now numbers work.

    I guess that shows how tough that era was.

    I guess that shows how weak that era was.

    My point is that if Morrison had been beaten by a small cruiserweight there would be no end of hammering on that point. My point is that Morrison achieved his higher KO% against a lineup of bigger and more skilled men than Baer did his. Accept it.

    Carnera dislocated his ankle in the first round and was a sitting duck after that. I guess that doesn't count?

    1) Compared to Morrison they were both small
    2) He'd weighed even less for their first meeting which he won, at 198. Guess he was out of shape for the second.

    Why do you want to engage in double standards when mentioning that some of the fighters Morrison beat were coming off losses but deem it irrelevant when it applies to Baer's opposition? :thinking:

    Morrison's best fighting weight was 227lb. He weighed as much as 234lb, but, probably like Farr for the second meeting with Baer, he was out of shape for that one. Baer's best performances came at ~205lb.
     
  8. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    Frankly, I expect this sort of thing from Dino. When contrasted with other active heavies from the 80s, it's a below average record. Tilis earned his bread as a gate keeper/journeyman.

    It has nothing to do with era. Tillis was simply a gate keeper, a professional loser used to build up promising fighters because he wasn't good enough to be a contender, he fought and lost to everyone. From Marvis Frazier to Tommy Morrison. His claim to fame was giving Tyson a scare in 86, but he was back to his losing ways right after. You are being deliberately obtuse here.

    Well, the sport was at it's commercial peak at this time with gyms on every corner flooded with young talent. Risko came out of the tough Cleveland scene, after 52 amateur fights, he turned pro and immediately began fighting 10 rounders against veterans. In less than 2 years, he was sharing the ring with Jack Sharkey, Tommy Loughran, Young Stribling, and Gene Tunney. He was the cagiest of the cagiest.


    "his is not too say Risko just stood there and absorbed punches, no, he was also a skilled boxer, but it was next to impossible to knock him down or out. In fact, in approximately 140 fights (the exact number is not known) Johnny was only stopped three times one of which was by the great Max Schmeling. He was counted out only one time and that was in his last bout when he was 38 years old."

    So what about Risko's long term contender status leads you to believe the era was weak? He was a tough, well schooled & experienced Cleveland spoiler.

    Baer KOed the better fighters. I would say his victims were more skilled and most importantly were at or near the peak of their careers. And Baer knocked out a bigger rated fighter than Tommy ever did.


    He injured his ankle after getting folded by a right hand. It's as legit as McCline vs Grant, and would have been a TKO 1 in contemporary times.


    He was simply a young man gaining bulk, he was the 207 and 204 for the Braddock and Louis fights. That's just his regular fighting weight.

    It's not double standards at all.

    *Farr was rated as the #2 HW in the World, observers felt he deserved the decision against the Champion and former Champion; respectfully.

    *James Tillis was a journeyman, every prospect was expected to fight and beat, and they did.
    *Williams was unrated, irrelevant, and had lost to a nobody in a fight he was floored twice in.
    *Thomas returned from injuries, dope, and a lay off and was used as a stepping stone for prospects Hunter, Bowe, and Morrison.
    *Ruddock was thought to be long retired when he was suddenly announced as Tommy's opponent.

    You are not stupid, you can tell the difference here.
     
  9. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    First off, good fight. Both these guys showed a lot of heart and guts. Morrison took some big hits at the end and didn't drop. So much for his glass chin. As for his defensive abilities, here's a list of points of interest. There's more, but these serve to illustrate well enough that Morrison had plenty of defence and used several techniques to negate the incoming. He also fought effectively off the back foot despte being clearly tired, and demonstrated late-fight power to end the fight:

    Notice:

    1) How both Hipp and Morrison keep their hands up. Unlike Baer.
    2) How Hipp shows good upper body movement and slips punches. Unlike Baer.
    3) How Tommy sways his upper body from side to side to be less of a static target.
    4) 5:23 Morrison picks off two punches on his gloves
    5) 5:26 Morrison uses space to negate Hipp's attack
    6) 6:56 Morrison ties Hipp up and stifles his attack
    7) 7:15 Morrison slips a left hook
    8) 8:05 Nice shot of Hipp's swollen face showing what Morrison's jab has done to him in only 3 rounds. That's a heavy jab.
    9) 9:21 Morrison misses and ducks low under the counter. Smooth work.
    10) 9:39 Morrison anicipates a heavy Hipp left hook and shields his head with his arm
    11) 9:52 Hipp tries to attack, Morrison uses footwork and space to deflate it.
    12) 10:07 Hipp shotguns the jab and Morrison slips it moving his head side to side
    13) 10:23 Hipp tries a sort of a hook cum uppercut that Morrison catches on his arm
    14) 14:05 Morrison slips a Hipp left hook neatly
    15) 15:02 Morrison uses footwork and lateral movement to escape a Hipp right.

    Conclusion: no, we don't end the myth of Morrison having a defence. Au contraire, this fight serves to reinforce that Tommy is a modern, well rounded fighter that has been drilled in many defensive techniques.

    Baer's main defensive technique was getting hit in the face and remaining vertical.
     
  10. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :eek: Wash your mouth out with soap.

    Let's try this slowly.

    1) Tillis' wins are almost the double of his losses.
    2) That means that the people he beat have an L and not a W on their records
    3) The ratio of wins to losses in any boxing period as a whole has to be 1:1, since each fight has a single winner and loser.
    4) Therefore for every Tillis with a 42-22 record, there is Fighter X with a 22-42 record. These fighters do not magically disappear.
    5) The meaning of average:

    average
    ˈav(ə)rɪdʒ/
    noun
    noun: average; plural noun: averages
    1
    .
    a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.

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    An average fighter with Tillis' number of fights would be 32-32.

    Tillis, as 42-22, is above average.

    Finis.

    Pot, kettle.

    The fact that a guy with such a crappy record, weighing what a small modern cruiser would weigh, who lost to middleweights, could be, according to you, so highly ranked.

    ^Opinion.

    Fair enough.

    In that case I see your Carnera's dislocated ankle and raise you two Baer losses to these creme de la creme of bumland:

    Jack McCarthy 6-22-3
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    ^ (PS McCarthy's IS what a "below average" record looks like)

    Tiny Abbott 13-8-1
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    I can tell the difference between a talented modern boxer and a brute force specialist like Baer, yes.
     
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  11. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    I'm sorry but arguing semantics instead of the point is the most Dino thing you can possibly do. Beating Tillis, especially when Morrison did, simply doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Please refrain from countering with the definition of a "hill" and the types of beans said hill would contain.


    You have to apply context to his record,

    Not according to me, RING Magazine.

    It's not hard to figure out why he was rated. He was fighting the best of the best on a monthly basis for years, often giving them hard fights, winning more often than not.


    I don't understand why you can't grasp the context of the era. Max Baer, like most fighters of the time turned pro with limited amateur experience and learned their craft in crude local circuits where things could get shady.

    Here's the details on these DQ losses:

    "McCarthy draped on the ropes, didn't want to fight any more. Baer stepped aside and motioned him to come out. McCarthy refused the invitation. Thereupon Max grabbed him around the waist and threw him forcefully to the floor. McCarthy got the decision on a foul."

    According to Max Baer: Clown Prince. Baer dropped the 240 pound Abbott, who rose unsteadily at the count of the 9. Baer misunderstood the official and ran out of the neutral corner and hit Abbot before he was ruled up, resulting in a DQ. Baer avenged the loss with a KO.

    Baer claims he was propositioned to throw both of fights and refused, resulting in this funny business. Or maybe he was just inexperienced and careless in a crude environment.


    Morrison was simply not a very good fighter, barely cracking the ratings during his career despite being rather coddled. Max Baer was a lower tier great who established himself as the best fighter on the planet for a time.

    Morrison often executed a technical style but was prone to costly defensive lapses and stamina issues, his durability is also highly questionable, he only went past 10 rounds once in his career, out working a man 20 years older than him. Baer was durable, strong, and well conditioned with a giant reach and quick feet. Baer was crude but he beat superior technical fighters and larger men multiple times. No question who my money is going on.
     
  12. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    Joe Louis?
     
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  13. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    Well put.
     
  14. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Would you prefer that I did hyperbole and sarcasm? I'm really good at those. ;)

    Straight off, that's your opinion. Secondly, that's the same argument you can make for some of Baer's wins, but you simply don't want to see it.

    I did apply context to his record: it was a weak era.

    Risko nearly always lost when he stepped it up, despite having a size advantage over many of his opponents. He has a few good wins, Baer being won of them. But for every Baer we get a loss to a guy like Jack van Noy 29-32
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    or George Cook 43-50
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    .

    So you're saying that there's a possibility of some of Baer's opponents being paid off to take dives? I never considered that angle.

    I fail to see the relevance. It's just as much a win as Baer's win over Carnera thanks to a dislocated ankle was. It would still count as a win today and it demonstrates Baer's ill-discipline. Morrison was a disciplined fighter and didn't throw fights away like this.

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    Hark, what is that belt over Morrison's shoulder?

    I think winning the WBC and WBO world titles puts your theory to rest.

    Morrison should have fought these guys in order to have gained credibility and not be "coddled":

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    57 17 21 *at the end of his career
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    57 22 21 *his last fight. Because beating him twice just wasn't enough
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    57 29 1 *Sounds like Weimar was paid to take a dive, given the possibility of funny business
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    That's 44 fighters that Morrison would have been slated for fighting and that make Tillis and co seem like the second coming of Joe Louis. Talk about coddled!

    Fair criticism. However, he adopted a more measured style after gassing against Mercer, and I'd say that his chin wasn't nearly as bad as people say it was. He took some hard shots in his career and didn't go down, and when he did go down he got up to fight on. After Louis gave Baer a taste of modern combination punching Baer took a seat and stayed sat.

    Sure, I can agree with this, broadly speaking. However, Baer was lazy in the ring where Tommy was busy, he was easy to hit and had no jab to speak of. He usually enjoyed a size advantage and his lack of footwork was masked by the propensity of his opponents to come straight at him. Louis, who I feel is a modern boxer in style, exploited the yawning gaps in Baer's game and destroyed him. Morrison would do the same.

    What I might add is that Baer was probably much better raw material to work with than Morrison. If he'd had somebody like Futch or Duva or Steward to work with him in the gym, he would have been a genuine ATG. However, that's not his story.

    I know a place where you can get free cardboard boxes and newspapers. ;)
     
  15. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    If you applied context, you would understand why Risko was rated for so many years and well regarded by writers.

    The strength of the era as a whole is a subjective opinion, but one that should be made after some understanding and evaluation in the proper context, which you are refusing to do.


    His whole career was a step up. Over half of his 100+ fights were against top 10 caliber fighters and he won more often than not.

    Morrison fought 3 rated opponents and a handful of fringe fighters his entire career, which is very minimalist for even a late 80s/early 90s fighter. Risko fought nothing but rated opponents and fringe contenders, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that he was a stronger rated fighter in his time.


    I don't think you read me correctly or you are just being a clown now. I said Baer as an upstart, was asked to drop fights for the house fighter and refused, not surprisingly these two fights ended with fishy dqs.


    In the sense that a win is a win, but getting disqualified for pushing the house fighter when the home ref was allowing him to illegally get a break is a bit different from getting dropped so limp, your foot folded under you.

    I know you are very much in agreement with me on Ward/Kov I and II being BS, so don't try to sell me now that you believe "a win is a win" because you don't like Baer.

    Of course Morrison didn't. Morrison was a Regional amateur Champion, an Olympic try out, and Golden Gloves Champion. He had a proficient amateur career in contrast to Baer, and was managed properly and brought slowly through the ranks. He wasn't put into positions like Baer was coming up.


    Morrison never won the WBC title. What are you talking about, man?

    Morrison won the vacated WBO title from Foreman, which was not a well regarded title at the time. He cracked the RING ratings at #9 that year. In large part because Morrison had really done nothing to restore his reputation after the Mercer blow out, Mercer himself turned out to be a bust, and old Foreman really wasn't well regarded in the early 90s.


    I have no idea why you wasted your time listing all those names. At the bottom of the barrel, most pro fighters records are going to look the same, it's at the top where they pull apart from each other.

    Morrison fought roughly 3 fighters that were regarded top 10 caliber at the time of the fight, and some solid fringe types.

    Baer fought maybe 18, in addition to lots of fringe types and unofficial "exhibitions" with contenders like Levisnky III that turned out to be real fights.


    Baer didn't throw a traditional jab, but his left hand was hardly ineffective. His reach in combination with pawing, distance keeping, guard grabbing, measuring, and view blocking could be very troubling for opponents.

    Baer had very good foot work, especially when moving laterally and backwards.

    Louis had the greatest punching technique in history and had the advantage of facing an injured Baer whose pain injections wore off after a rain delay. Again, context.

    Louis' style was not unique to the time, however his GOAT execution was and still is.
     


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