Max Kellerman on Who Is Greater: Mayweather or Pacquaio

Who are Floyd’s contemporaries for that kind of win? He was 36, four weightclasses above his original weight, 20 something world level fights since winning his first belt, and fighting an undefeated champion.

Canelo managed to beat the other two slick fighters at 154 around that time (the Lara fight was close but that’s beside the point) but lost wide to Floyd. You could put Canelo around the level of Reid and Vargas going into the Tito fights considering his experience level, but there’s a lot more to it than saying it’s a run of the mill belt grab.

What company does he keep for that win? Duran over Barkley? Hearns over Hill? Anything else?

 

Canelo was arguably the best 154-lber in the world when Mayweather beat him. It was a very good win, even without hindsight.

PS - Jones ducked Hopkins? Seemed pretty clear to me at the time that Hopkins was the one pricing himself out of the Jones rematch.

 

Examples? Are you just referring to the Pacquiao fight?

 

I dont know how you price yourself out of a fight with a guy who was getting roycotted and was never big box office at a time when you just unified the MW division for the first time in over a decade in the best tournament the sport had seen in a couple of decades. 50/50 was eminently fair. But hey, Hopkins isnt the one who missed a whose who of competition in 3 divisions that were all scrambling for a fight and was getting shamed by his own network for timid matchmaking. That was Jones. Fool me once shame on me, fool me half a dozen times of more and theres a pattern of cherry picking there. Nevermind all of the testimony that came out in the WBC trial which laid bare the Jones and co. MO.

We arent talking about whether Canelo MIGHT have been the best at 154 when Mayweather fought him, a highly debateable point which speaks more to the weakness of the division than to Canelos greatness or Floyds bravery. We are discussing why Floyd should get credit for everything Canelo achieves thereafter, as max says, and my point is he shouldnt. Lets not pretend that like Jones Floyd doesnt have a long history of picking and choosing who to fight and precisely when to fight them. Its not like the guy was a fearless matchmaker for himself. He usually took the path of least resistence.

 

that fight was for '09, '10 .. didn't put any importance in it when they fought .. Floyd didn't fight to be the best, he fought not to lose .. He wasn't even an active fighter.. 45 fights in 18 years of healthy boxing just doesn't impress me.. He was the draw so it was always his list of demands that needed to be met or the other guy doesn't get paid. Wanting Canelo at 147 but no problems having 11 pounds on JMM( who was fighting at 135) .. DLH 10 years past prime, Old mosley .. just not a Floyd fan .. more Pac who was the guy who would fight anyone anywhere anytime ,, that just wasn't Floyd

 

He got better though, and that wasn't a Prime Cancelo. Name me Canelo's best win previous to fighting May that earned him the "best 154-lber" you've credited him with. Are you referring to his one fight again top competition that many also had him losing vs. Trout? That fight earned him that title? He has clearly improved and clearly wasn't at his best then. Just look at how he performed on the big stage. It was like he was a dear in headlights and in awe of Mayweather. He never opened up at all, he never pressed when it could be clearly seen by everybody that is what he had to do to win. He did nothing, and franly even less than at the start. If you think that was even close to what he became later, I just can't agree with that notion.

 

Fair point that Floyd doesn't necessarily deserve credit based on all of Canelo's subsequent career accomplishments. How he fares in the period right after the Mayweather fight seems obviously relevant, but I'm not sure where/when to draw the line.

I've been critical of Mayweather's late career matchmaking but his cherry-picking gets wildly exaggerated in this forum. There are people around here who even accuse him of waiting for Oscar and Shane to get old, when he had publicly called both men out for years and was willing to move up in weight to fight them!

 

Which 154-lbers do you think would have beaten Canelo in late 2013? Bet it's a very short list. Canelo wasn't tops on my list but I don't think it's a stretch to say that he was arguably the top JWW then.

He fought a poor fight against Mayweather and underperformed. It happens. He's fought better fights before and after then. Doesn't mean he wasn't already entering his prime.

 

It's understandable if you want to downplay those wins for the reasons you mention (age and size, etc.), but they're really poor examples of his supposed cherry-picking.

 

Yup Floyd did a lot of talking that's for sure ... but the hoops were always moving to jump through .. and No GGG in last 4 years?? Yup Floyds a talker allright

 

That's the point Kev ,, Where are the adv. the other way??

 

He gave up youth to everyone he fought since Mosley.
He gave up lots of size to Oscar, Canelo, and Maidana.
He weighed less on fight night in the great majority of fights at 147 or higher. Castillo and Corales even weighed a good amount more on fight night, if I'm not mistaken.
He completed plenty of fights with hand or shoulder injuries.
Canelo and Oscar had mysterious scorecards turned in in their favor.

 

I'm curious about something on this point. Can you link me to the article or signed contract offer to Mosley that was supposedly turned down? I've heard people talk about Money really wanting the Mosley fight a lot sooner than it happened, but I'm unclear where that notion comes from. Talking is talking. That is totally and completely irrelevant to actually putting forth a legit offer. People call out others all the time, in the ring, interviews, or in the streets, that doesn't mean much of anything unless you're putting pen to paper or backing up the talk with actions.

 

Mayweather was better and would have beaten Manny Pacquaio who had close fights with Morales.

Morales was a great boxer, but not in Mayweather's class. Keyword class. Mayweather was the best boxer in many years, shrinking him down or blow him up, he's still a better boxer.

A shutdown type with top footwork, fantastic accuracy and speed, a very underrated chin ( Minimizing Pacquiao's best chance ) and just about the best straight counterpunch I have seen.

***Mayweather had very few close fights. Pacquiao had several. ***

As for Kellerman's argument about winning lineal titles, the best question to ask is vs. who and when? I'm not a big lineal title guy, as they don't mean as much these days, its mostly about business and timing, not #1 fighting #2 or #3 at a given weight

But who never lost or drew? Mayweather

Pound for pound Mayweather > Pacquaio.

Some say Mayweather didn't fight enough tough guys, but I count 8 who either are or will be in the hall of fame.

As a fan, I like Pacquaio a lot more.

 

Why is Max so fidgety? Can't you talk without rotating?