Maybe Rubin Hurricane Carter isn't as innocent as believed

all those poeple are. Money brings luxury, sex and trips to the rest of the world, but not true happiness.

 

Anyone who has studied the case in detail can draw their own conclusions. My opinion is that there was an overwhelming amount of evidence to clearly point to Carter doing it (and was a horrible person). When you study the case you realize that its ludicrous to suggest there would be that amount of evidence pointing to Carter and Artis if someone else did the crime. Its common sense.

Carter is another one of those guys discussed in another thread here whose fans make so many excuses for him simply because he participated in the sport they love or because he had a movie made about him that they enjoyed. The reality is that he was probably a murderer and even if he wasnt they wouldnt have wanted to spend any amount of time with the real Carter, not the sanitized version that Denzel Washington portrayed.

 

Upon what do you base that conclusion? “He’s a horrible person” doesn’t count as evidence he committed this particular crime.

The shell casings were planted. They were not found on a search of the rental car. Then suddenly, days later, the police say ‘well we took another look at the car and lo and behold we found shell casings on the floorboard that we completely missed before.’ Oh, and when that comes into question, they magically turn up with a document that says they found the shell casings on the first search … but didn’t collect them as evidence and left them in the car? You couldn’t make this up.

But wait, there’s more — those shell casings used as evidence Carter and Artis committed the crime, um, they don’t match the ones from the crime scene. Turns out the planted ones from the handgun were brass rather than the copper ones found at the crime scene and the shotgun shell ‘found’ (i.e. planted) in the rental car was the wrong color, wrong wadding and was older than the ones used in the crime.

There is literally no forensic evidence tying the accused to the crime. They didn’t perform a test for gunpowder residue even though they were interrogated for 17 hours straight (police excuse — ‘we didn’t have enough time to get someone there to do the test’ even though they had them in custody for basically a whole day) and, oh, they were given lie detector tests that they passed.

Neither Carter (a pretty distinctive looking guy who was known to locals) nor Artis matched the descriptions of eyewitnesses who saw the two gunmen. One who gave a different description changed his description when police realized that he didn’t just happen upon the bodies in the bar — he came in and robbed the cash register (which why isn’t he a suspect?) — and when confronted with criminal charges AND told he’d get a $10K reward if he fingered Carter and Artis … suddenly remembered ‘oh, yeah, it was Carter and Artis.’ He also later recanted.

One witness at the scene did say they saw Artis leaving after the gunshots. That witness did not see Carter there.

Frankly, in any reading of this case if you look at how the police’s stories kept changing (and neither Carter’s nor Artis’ stories did), there really isn’t any evidence beyond your ‘he was a horrible person.’

On what do you form your basis that there’s evidence here that fingers Carter? The one witness who kept changing his story (and only named Carter under duress of arrest for robbery — he was never charged after changing his Tory — and a sizable reward bribe)? Because that’s the whole case.

 

I've no idea if he was guilty or not. But I DO know he wasn't robbed vs Giardello....that's bs. He lost fair and square. The fight is on YouTube. Watch it, score it. Then tell me if Carter was robbed.

 

I see someone has read the fictional accounts of the story told by carter and the weird hippie cult that ultimately helped free him only to see one of their own beaten by him.

Its not my job to educate you or relitigate the case here. If you really care about learning about it read all sides of the story, not just those sympathetic to Carter.

 

I don’t feel like dancing all night with this, I already said that Carter was rightfully released. I don’t believe in planting evidence. But do you - feel he was guilty?

 

The court never declared him factually innocent. They simply said he didn’t receive a fair trial.

 

No American court ever declares someone factually innocent.

Not guilty literally means, legally, not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

No court found him factually guilty in a verdict that wasn’t overturned. Which means he wasn’t proven guilty … and in this country you’re innocent until proven guilty.

 

Yes, but the question OP is posing isn’t about the court proceedings or the American justice system. It is about the basic facts of the case and what kind of man Carter was known to be in real life (not the highly fictionalized version in the song or movie), in order to believe he may have been guilty.

It is similar to the OJ debate, he went through the court system, got off, yet many are still not convinced of his innocence.

 

I don’t believe there is any way to know because the case was so corrupt.

When police resort to planting evidence, to threatening and bribing witnesses, and there’s ZERO forensic evidence, that should tell us all something.

None of the witnesses placed Carter there except the guy who changed what he originally said (after being threatened with prison and told he would collect a $10K reward IF he named Carter and Artis) — he testified to that and then recanted later. He was found to be too unreliable to put on the stand when the second conviction was overturned.

Oh, and other witnesses backed up Carter’s testimony of where he said he was at the time. Hmm.

I’ll lean on what I posted above: Rubin Carter was never proven guilty in a court of law that appeals judges did not throw out — and it wasn’t on technicalities. That means he’s presumed innocent. So I presume he was not guilty.

There’s simply no compelling evidence that he killed anyone. I think the most likely suspect is the actual key witness, since he was proven to be in the bar before and immediately after the shooting (cleaning out the cash register), and somehow was spared by the ‘killers’ … he had to be in on it imo, but because they instead wanted Carter in the frame they turned him into a ‘witness.’

 

And as has been pointed out, the police and prosecutors didn’t plant evidence against OJ. They didn’t coerce witnesses to say they saw him there. He simply got off because they failed to prove their case. (It’s complicated and a lot plays into it, but it was jury nullification imo.)

I am not saying Rubin Carter wasn’t a bad man. But that has nothing to do with whether he killed these specific people in this specific crime. Charles Manson was a bad man, but he didn’t kill these people either. So I don’t see what ‘bad man’ has to do with whether he killed these people.

I also think the crooked cops who planted evidence and the crooked prosecutor who hid exculpatory evidence are bad men — good men don’t do that. And if they did it to him, lord knows how many other people they did it to. Does that mean they committed these murders? Because we know they’re bad.

 

You keep claiming the police planted evidence. They didnt. You claim witnesses testified that Carter was somewhere else during the shooting but neglect to mention that those witnesses were found to be coached by Carter to LIE. You are about as reliable as he was and his biography has been proven to be mostly fiction.

 

The shell casing and shotgun shell were planted.

1. They impounded the rental vehicle the night of the murders.

2. They searched the vehicle and found no shell casings or shotgun shells. (There was ann official police report on the search that prove this.)

3. Five days later, lacking evidence, they said ‘hey, let’s go search the car again.’

4. Magically, they find a shell casing and shotgun shell in the car that their first search amazingly overlooked even though they were looking for evidence in a multiple murder.

5. Someone pointed out that was kinda strange how they missed those in the first place.

6. They then magically produced a SECOND report of the search that said, wow, they found those in the first search.

7. They timestamped this second report at 75 minutes after the murders occurred. At that moment in time, they were questioning Carter and Artis (and would continue to question them for 17 hours) — they searched the car as soon as they brought them in (actually they followed police voluntarily, driving the rental car). So according to this (bogus) second report, they found this important evidence while the two men were being questioned about the murder and (a) released them after questioning rather than arresting them and (b) never thought to ask them about this important evidence even while questioning them for the majority of a full day.

8. They were somehow unable to explain how it was that they didn’t bag and tag this important evidence, and just left it the car even though they were now claiming they found it in the original search.

9. It was pointed out that, hey, these shell casings and shotgun shell don’t actually match the ones found at the murder scene. They shrugged and said it didn’t matter, this was proof that the accused had committed the murders.

Now you explain to me how they missed those shells in the first place. Then explain to me how they actually didn’t miss those shells and found them, but somehow produced a report that did not mention finding AMMUNITION IN A CAR THEY ARE CLAIMING WAS DRIVEN BY THE MURDERERS. Then explain to me how they managed to produce a second report from the first search that listed items not found in the first report. Then explain to me if they actually did find those in the first search, how more than one supposedly competent police investigators didn’t bother to bag or otherwise collect this important evidence, and instead just shrugged and left it in the car.

I have a better idea: I’ll explain it to you. There weren’t any casings or shells in the car. That’s why they didn’t find them and that’s why they wrote a report that didn’t mention them (the only actual reliable part of this whole corrupt fiasco involving the casings/shotgun shell being the original report). So how did they get there? I’ll tell you — they were 100% planted and everything I outlined above would be enough to put the police who did it in jail if they had been arrested and brought to trial for this.

As for ‘coached,’ the main witness was interviewed and described two men who DID NOT meet the descriptions of Carter (a very unique looking guy you must agree) or Artis. Then police realized he had been in the bar up to the shootings and had cleaned out the cash register after — now being really good and uncorrupt and honest police investigators, they didn’t consider him a suspect in the killings that happened at a place and time where he was committing a crime … they came to him and said ‘if you testify that you saw Carter and Artis fleeing from the scene, we will not charge you with robbery — in fact, you will get a $10K reward! Guess what … he changed his account.

Now did the good and honest prosecutor disclose to the defense (as legally required) that this man had changed his story, that he had been offered the inducement of not being charged of a crime he committed at the time and place where people were murdered? Of course not. And there was another witness who testified who had been given a deal that was not reported to the defense. BOTH of these witnesses lied under oath, on the stand (it’s called perjury) about the deals (and an audio recording of one of their interviews with police confirmed this 100%) … yet that wasn’t disclosed to the defense and the prosecutor was bound by law to inform the judge that his witnesses had committed perjury — but did not do so.

I have not read Carter’s book. I saw most of the movie a long time ago but didn’t finish it. I’ve heard a few bars of Bob Dylan’s song but not its entirety because Bob Dylan is an absolutely horrible singer who slurs his words to the point of being barely intelligible and his music is like nails on a chalkboard to me.

I HAVE, however, read the unanimous opinions of the New Jersey appeals judges who threw out the first conviction and many of the legal documents online related to the case and later appeals.

Everything I posted above is 100% fact as based on these court opinions and documents and original reporting by major newspapers on the case as it played out over the years. There is no doubt whatsoever that the convictions were absolute shams, which is why the appeals courts threw them out.

There is zero reliable evidence that Carter participated in the murders.

 

Unlike the robbery homocide, this case is now closed.

Strongly object to what was said about Dylan, though.

 

What a lot of people in this thread dont understand is that character doesn't matter in a court of law, Hurricane Carter was a violent, shady, manipulative, abusive, liar but his case was in many ways a miscarriage of justice. Bad people deserve fair trials too