Mayweather-Corrales. Jones-Toney. Why are 2 of the best wins of our era criticized?

DINAMITA · Sep 12, 2008

Nov 94

Roy Jones UD12 James Toney

Toney's last fight before Jones was four months earlier. A final round KO win over Prince Charles Williams. He was ahead on all 3 judges scorecards at the time.
His last fight at the weight before that was a 4th round KO of Tim Littles (24-0).
At the time of this fight, Toney was pound-for-pound no.2 in the world, undefeated in 46 fights, and IBF supermiddleweight champion.

Jan 01

Floyd Mayweather TKO10 Diego Corrales

Corrales had been at 130 for 5 fights leading up to Mayweather. His last fight before Mayweather was a 3rd round stoppage win over Angel Manfredy.
Corrales's record going into the fight was 33-0(28). He was ranked 5th by The Ring pound-for-pound.

In my opinion, these two wins (along with Hopkins v Trinidad, Pacquiao v Barrera I, Morales v Pacquiao I) are the best wins of our era.

It really irritates me that when you consider how good Toney and Corrales were at the time and the quality of the performances by Jones and Mayweather on the night, it seems that they can be completely dismissed by just bluntly saying about Toney or Corrales:

Weight-drained. He was weight-drained.

And that's that win written off completely.

The fact is both men were competing at that weight in the years running up to that fight, and both won their last fights before the fights in question at the same weight and by KO.

I'm not saying there can be no mitigating circumstances for a loss, not at all. I am the first person to discredit a win when I think the guy who lost is either fighting at a weight too high for him to handle (eg Raheem v Morales) or when the guy who lost is shot (eg Johnson v Jones Jr) or even just well past prime (eg De La Hoya v Chavez I).

But the "weight-drained" thing seems to me to be more of a retrospective excuse than a valid reason for a defeat.

I'm not saying that Toney or Corrales were in the peak condition of their careers for these fights, maybe they did find it tougher than usual to make the weight, but I don't believe either man's condition was so bad that the wins should be rendered meaningless.

If James Toney thought his '0' was in danger because he felt weak in the run-up to the fight, I would think he would postpone it. Going into the biggest fight of his career against a brilliant undefeated champion, if he knew he wasn't in a fit state to compete, I think he would've put the fight back a bit.

Same with Corrales. I think in the case of both it was more a case of they ran into an opponent who was (a) on a meteoric rise to brilliance and could not be stopped, and (b) was a stylistic nightmare for them, and would have been on any night of their careers.

Two men made the weight, got in the ring, fought for 10 or 12 rounds, and one man was simply the better man on the night. And that's coming from a big big James Toney fan. The better man won.

Mayweather and Jones Jr are the 2 most talented fighters of the last 10-15 years. We should celebrate both men's greatest career victories, not belittle them with blunt excuses.

There are other instances of the weight-drain excuse for fighters fighting in their own weight division. Please bring up any that bother you.

Thoughts/opinions???

Thread Stealer · Sep 12, 2008

Great wins are always criticized by detractors, because it's easy to find ways to criticize a win.

Barrera was distracted by a forest fire and a divorce when Pacquiao destroyed him.

Corrales was weight-drained and distracted by legal troubles when Mayweather dominated him.

Toney was weight-drained when Jones schooled him.

Hearns was overtrained when he lost to Leonard, and no one knows if Leonard could've got to Hearns under today's rules (12 rounds).

Tyson was overconfident and had a terrible corner when Douglas beat him.

Trinidad cheated by hitting Vargas low after he got dropped.

Trinidad was a blown up welterweight, who cares if Hopkins beat him?

Tarver was weight-drained when Hopkins beat him.

tays001 · Sep 12, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

Nov 94

Roy Jones UD12 James Toney

Toney's last fight before Jones was four months earlier. A final round KO win over Prince Charles Williams. He was ahead on all 3 judges scorecards at the time.
His last fight at the weight before that was a 4th round KO of Tim Littles (24-0).
At the time of this fight, Toney was pound-for-pound no.2 in the world, undefeated in 46 fights, and IBF supermiddleweight champion.

Jan 01

Floyd Mayweather TKO10 Diego Corrales

Corrales had been at 130 for 5 fights leading up to Mayweather. His last fight before Mayweather was a 3rd round stoppage win over Angel Manfredy.
Corrales's record going into the fight was 33-0(28). He was ranked 5th by The Ring pound-for-pound.

In my opinion, these two wins (along with Hopkins v Trinidad, Pacquiao v Barrera I, Morales v Pacquiao I) are the best wins of our era.

It really irritates me that when you consider how good Toney and Corrales were at the time and the quality of the performances by Jones and Mayweather on the night, it seems that they can be completely dismissed by just bluntly saying about Toney or Corrales:

Weight-drained. He was weight-drained.

And that's that win written off completely.

The fact is both men were competing at that weight in the years running up to that fight, and both won their last fights before the fights in question at the same weight and by KO.

I'm not saying there can be no mitigating circumstances for a loss, not at all. I am the first person to discredit a win when I think the guy who lost is either fighting at a weight too high for him to handle (eg Raheem v Morales) or when the guy who lost is shot (eg Johnson v Jones Jr) or even just well past prime (eg De La Hoya v Chavez I).

But the "weight-drained" thing seems to me to be more of a retrospective excuse than a valid reason for a defeat.

I'm not saying that Toney or Corrales were in the peak condition of their careers for these fights, maybe they did find it tougher than usual to make the weight, but I don't believe either man's condition was so bad that the wins should be rendered meaningless.

If James Toney thought his '0' was in danger because he felt weak in the run-up to the fight, I would think he would postpone it. Going into the biggest fight of his career against a brilliant undefeated champion, if he knew he wasn't in a fit state to compete, I think he would've put the fight back a bit.

Same with Corrales. I think in the case of both it was more a case of they ran into an opponent who was (a) on a meteoric rise to brilliance and could not be stopped, and (b) was a stylistic nightmare for them, and would have been on any night of their careers.

Two men made the weight, got in the ring, fought for 10 or 12 rounds, and one man was simply the better man on the night. And that's coming from a big big James Toney fan. The better man won.

Mayweather and Jones Jr are the 2 most talented fighters of the last 10-15 years. We should celebrate both men's greatest career victories, not belittle them with blunt excuses.

There are other instances of the weight-drain excuse for fighters fighting in their own weight division. Please bring up any that bother you.

Thoughts/opinions???
Click to expand...

dam good post

DINAMITA · Sep 12, 2008

tays001 said:

dam good post
Click to expand...

Cheers mate :good

FlatNose · Sep 12, 2008

It is true, Jones and Mayweather were the 2 most talented fighters in the last 10-15 years. The two wins , Corrales and Toney were the biggest in both careers, even considering Jones beat a top ten heavyweight (notice I didn't say heavyweight champion). Mayweather went on to beat Castillio, and a depleted DLH. Point is , after their signature wins, both guys rested on their laurels , picking opponents as carefully as a maiden picks strawberries.
Their mouths got more brazen, though, and this was a dissapointment. How much more could these guys have done? Roy Jones-Lennox Lewis, Mayweather- Cotto? I would have loved to see these, but both guys perfered just to fight easier fights and act snotty.

DINAMITA · Sep 12, 2008

Thread Stealer said:

Great wins are always criticized by detractors, because it's easy to find ways to criticize a win.

Barrera was distracted by a forest fire and a divorce when Pacquiao destroyed him.

Corrales was weight-drained and distracted by legal troubles when Mayweather dominated him.

Toney was weight-drained when Jones schooled him.

Hearns was overtrained when he lost to Leonard, and no one knows if Leonard could've got to Hearns under today's rules (12 rounds).

Tyson was overconfident and had a terrible corner when Douglas beat him.

Trinidad cheated by hitting Vargas low after he got dropped.

Trinidad was a blown up welterweight, who cares if Hopkins beat him?

Tarver was weight-drained when Hopkins beat him.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the sort of garbage I am talking about. Good post

DINAMITA · Sep 12, 2008

FlatNose said:

It is true, Jones and Mayweather were the 2 most talented fighters in the last 10-15 years. The two wins , Corrales and Toney were the biggest in both careers, even considering Jones beat a top ten heavyweight (notice I didn't say heavyweight champion). Mayweather went on to beat Castillio, and a depleted DLH. Point is , after their signature wins, both guys rested on their laurels , picking opponents as carefully as a maiden picks strawberries.
Their mouths got more brazen, though, and this was a dissapointment. How much more could these guys have done? Roy Jones-Lennox Lewis, Mayweather- Cotto? I would have loved to see these, but both guys perfered just to fight easier fights and act snotty.
Click to expand...

This is true to an extent. Jones had good wins over Griffin in their second fight, Ruiz, and Tarver. Mayweather had good wins over Castillo in their second fight, Hatton, and De La Hoya.

But yeah, both guys could have done more. Now that Cotto has been badly beaten, I don't think there is anything for Mayweather to gain from fighting him, I would have preferred to see him fight Tszyu at 140 and Margarito just now.

I would have loved to have seen a Jones-Hopkins rematch and a fight with Michalczewski at LHW.

But this doesn't detract from the great wins v Toney and Corrales.

Rico Spadafora · Sep 12, 2008

Jones/Toney was a very boring fight.

DINAMITA · Sep 12, 2008

Rico Spadafora said:

Jones/Toney was a very boring fight.
Click to expand...

Because it was one-sided.

jexdd · Sep 12, 2008

Its a great post. RJJs win over Toney, Hopkins, Ruiz are the crown jewels of his career and they shouldnt be disparaged .. especially by the Losers. Jones at the time had everything .. speed, footwork, power, body punching, head movement .. you name it. Its kind of a shame that he didnt utilize it by taking all comers .. and maybe if he stayed at heavyweight he couldve cleaned up the ranks and fought Wald for a unification .. and now we're talking FIGHT OF AN ERA.

As far as Corrales agasint Mayweather.. he was a fan favourite at the time. He was rangy and freakishly powerful. I say against Mayweather is one of his best performances of his career and thinking of his remarkable comeback against Castillo I really feel sorry he wasnt able to finish the fight on his own terms that night. The Corrales story for me is a real American tradegy. You know, someone who gave everything to the sport and in boxing that's your entire being. But he ends up broke and watching the latest HBO PPV , PBF DLH spar for multimillion dollar paycheq. Kind of depressing really.

Loewe · Sep 12, 2008

Those were both good wins. I rate the Corrales win of PBF higher because Toney clearly was visibly weight-drained. Toney always would lose to a fighter with good footwork and ring generalship and Jones would always win against him but Toney would make it closer.

THE BLADE · Sep 12, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

Nov 94

Roy Jones UD12 James Toney

Toney's last fight before Jones was four months earlier. A final round KO win over Prince Charles Williams. He was ahead on all 3 judges scorecards at the time.
His last fight at the weight before that was a 4th round KO of Tim Littles (24-0).
At the time of this fight, Toney was pound-for-pound no.2 in the world, undefeated in 46 fights, and IBF supermiddleweight champion.

Jan 01

Floyd Mayweather TKO10 Diego Corrales

Corrales had been at 130 for 5 fights leading up to Mayweather. His last fight before Mayweather was a 3rd round stoppage win over Angel Manfredy.
Corrales's record going into the fight was 33-0(28). He was ranked 5th by The Ring pound-for-pound.

In my opinion, these two wins (along with Hopkins v Trinidad, Pacquiao v Barrera I, Morales v Pacquiao I) are the best wins of our era.

It really irritates me that when you consider how good Toney and Corrales were at the time and the quality of the performances by Jones and Mayweather on the night, it seems that they can be completely dismissed by just bluntly saying about Toney or Corrales:

Weight-drained. He was weight-drained.

And that's that win written off completely.

The fact is both men were competing at that weight in the years running up to that fight, and both won their last fights before the fights in question at the same weight and by KO.

I'm not saying there can be no mitigating circumstances for a loss, not at all. I am the first person to discredit a win when I think the guy who lost is either fighting at a weight too high for him to handle (eg Raheem v Morales) or when the guy who lost is shot (eg Johnson v Jones Jr) or even just well past prime (eg De La Hoya v Chavez I).

But the "weight-drained" thing seems to me to be more of a retrospective excuse than a valid reason for a defeat.

I'm not saying that Toney or Corrales were in the peak condition of their careers for these fights, maybe they did find it tougher than usual to make the weight, but I don't believe either man's condition was so bad that the wins should be rendered meaningless.

If James Toney thought his '0' was in danger because he felt weak in the run-up to the fight, I would think he would postpone it. Going into the biggest fight of his career against a brilliant undefeated champion, if he knew he wasn't in a fit state to compete, I think he would've put the fight back a bit.

Same with Corrales. I think in the case of both it was more a case of they ran into an opponent who was (a) on a meteoric rise to brilliance and could not be stopped, and (b) was a stylistic nightmare for them, and would have been on any night of their careers.

Two men made the weight, got in the ring, fought for 10 or 12 rounds, and one man was simply the better man on the night. And that's coming from a big big James Toney fan. The better man won.

Mayweather and Jones Jr are the 2 most talented fighters of the last 10-15 years. We should celebrate both men's greatest career victories, not belittle them with blunt excuses.

There are other instances of the weight-drain excuse for fighters fighting in their own weight division. Please bring up any that bother you.

Thoughts/opinions???
Click to expand...

James Toney Toney was severely weight drained for the fight. According to reports leading up to the fight he weighed 209 just 6 weeks before the week. He put on 17 pounds after the weigh in and his body looked soft. Postponement of the fight was in talk but his manager Kacky Kallen wanted to go trough with it. Toney looked terribly slow in the fight.

It was not Jones his fault. He put on a tremendous performance and may very well have won against an in shape Toney.

The Thruth!!!!! · Sep 12, 2008

Good post...there's always an excuse when a top tier fighter loses....and it never has to do with the other guy simply being the better man that night. Hell both Taylor and Miranda said they were weight drained after getting KTFO by Pavlik. Funny they never mention being weight drained when they win a fight though.

Suge Green · Sep 12, 2008

The only thing Jones-Toney has for the Jones fan is a name opponent.

Greatest win of the era, in a less than spectacular fight...???...Ok.

pit · Sep 12, 2008

THE BLADE said:

James Toney Toney was severely weight drained for the fight. According to reports leading up to the fight he weighed 209 just 6 weeks before the week. He put on 17 pounds after the weigh in and his body looked soft. Postponement of the fight was in talk but his manager Kacky Kallen wanted to go trough with it. Toney looked terribly slow in the fight.

It was not Jones his fault. He put on a tremendous performance and may very well have won against an in shape Toney.
Click to expand...

when your a pro fighter one of the thing you have to do is control your weight , with that said I believe it was Tony who wanted to fight Roy.

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