Mayweather & Current Legacy

This thread deals with a contemporary fighter, but I believe this belongs in this section because you folks deal with these things pretty well, and can compare and contrast legacies in a historical context well.

Have at it.

There has been a sentiment lately among some boxing folks, who are putting Mayweather up there with the great names of the past. I think Mayweather has a special skill set, but I think we need to scrutinize his accomplishments. Here goes....

In terms of opponents, his situation is not nearly as severe as what Roy Jones did for years, but when we're talking about all-time status, we need to analyze with care. I felt he accomplished a lot at 130, and was excellent at 135, but he actually didn't stay long enough at that weight.

The points Brian Kenny made in their contentious 2006 ESPN interview were valid at the time. At the time, he was getting ready to face Judah, who was coming off a loss. Mayweather had not faced the best at 140 prior to that. Kenny was right in what he said to Mayweather, but I did not approve of the way Kenny approached the issue, because it appeared as though he was purposely trying to start a food fight, which is real easy to do with Mayweather because he reacts viscerally to any hint of disrespect. However, when they got into it, the consensus among most was that Kenny won boxing's re-enactment of the 1992 Al Gore vs. Dan Quayle debate. Lots of vitriol and ad hominem anger, but it really didn't produce anything that was good for boxing.


Thereafter, he beat Judah, but lost several of the opening rounds. He beat Baldomir, who is a very tough and solid fighter, but not considered the real elite at 147 when you look at all of the options in 2006 and 2007. I've said my piece on Oscar. Prime Oscar at 140 probably beats Mayweather, and the 147 pound version of Oscar versus Mayweather is a tough fight I think Oscar wins as well. 135 pound version of Oscar is a big problem, too.

I think the 2000 version of Mosley beats the 147 version of Mayweather, and the 135 pound version of Mosley probably does the same to Mayweather because he was a superb body puncher at the time. Shoot, I think the 2002, welterweight version of Vernon Forrest would've beaten the 147 version of Mayweather. The jab, right hand, body punching, and size advantage are a huge problem for Mayweather.

It is important to note that neither Oscar nor Mosley are considered among the top 10 PFP welterweights in boxing history. Neither is Forrest. I think Oscar could've ranked among the top 10 PFP fighters in jr. welterweight history, but didn't stay long enough, and neither did Mayweather. With the exception of Castillo, Oscar actually fought more and better opponents at 135 than Mayweather did, but you don't hear many rank him on the all-time list at that weight either. At 130, Oscar just didn't---and couldn't--stay long enough to take his legacy seriously there.

From 135 to 147, Oscar's legacy is actually superior to that of Mayweather. Let's remember that this is a guy who, at one time between 1995 - 1997, fought in 10 championship fights, and the compiled records of his opposition was 447-13-6....many of those fighters had held, or were holding, world titles, and several had either one loss or were undefeated champions. Some were past their primes, but certainly, most were of more difficult ilk than what Mayweather has faced between those 3 divisions. Let's remember, this is all within 5 years of Oscar turning pro. His resume actually gets tougher and tougher from there with Quartey, Trinidad, 2000 version of Mosley, etc.

At 135, Mayweather fought Castillo twice---one which some felt he lost---and followed up with fights against Sosa and N'Dou....then left the division. His three fights at 140 were against Corley, Bruseles, and Gatti. Corley is a good fighter....I see him as an acid test between what separates a champion and a contender at 140....but that's it for Mayweather at that weight.

Mayweather has shown a tendency to skip around divisions to collect belts, but doesn't seem inclined to seek unification to create purity. We know that Paul Williams, Miguel Cotto (who is much, much better at 147 than he was at 140), Antonio Margarito, Kermit Cintron (whose stock is currently declining, but he can turn it around), and the older version of Shane Mosley are the elite at 147.

Most recently, we know that Ricky Hatton struggled with Collazo, looked pretty ordinary against Urango, and fought very, very well against Castillo, but Castillo was right on the cusp of being a shot fighter if you look at his previous two performances. Thus, one can deem this fight as certainly very interesting because of Hatton's accomplishments at 140 and the styles clash, but really, he's not nearly the top---or most dangerous---opponent at 147.

In my opinion, as soon as Paul Williams decisioned Margarito, if Mayweather really wanted to provide substance and purity, he would've called Williams out. He should've done the same after Cotto bludgeoned Judah. Instead, he goes for Hatton after Hatton disposes of the shot version of Castillo. Let's face it, Cotto has been more impressive than Mayweather thus far, this year in terms of what he did to Judah, and beating a still dangerous Mosley.

To add to all of this, let's look at Floyd's opponents after the 2002 bouts Jose Luis Castillo, and just before the Judah fight in 2006.

1. Victoriano Sosa (solid fighter, but lost to Spadafora)
2. Phillip N'Dou (hard puncher, but never beat anyone of note)
3. DeMarcus Corley (good fighter)
4. Henry Bruseles (no threat)
5. Arturo Gatti (not truly elite....look at his losses)
6. Sharmba Mitchell (shot fighter)

Which one of those opponents was truly dangerous to him as the elite I've mentioned at 147? None. Moreover, there were dangerous opponents for him at 140, but the fights never materialized.

All in all, I think Floyd Mayweather is right near the top on the list of the greatest 130 fighters in boxing history, but his legacy as an all-time great in any of the divisions thereafter deserves scrutiny. By the age of 30, Oscar's resume is actually superior to that of Mayweather, and he is not considered an all-time great fighter, and doesn't occupy the list of the top 5 or even top 10 pfp fighters in a lot of the divisions he competed in.

A lot of this talk about all-time status, especially coming from Floyd's uncle Roger, is really hype. He's a helluva fighter, but we really need to look at his propensity not to face the best in the last several years. I think he has a special skill set, but we need to see unification against tougher opponents to put him up high with the great fighters of the past.

Some additional evidence.

When Duran vacated 135 in 1978, a lot of people forget that his official, written, public challenge in the newspapers was to ALL CHAMPIONS UP TO 160 POUNDS. Win, lose, or draw, Leonard, Duran, Hearns, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles (who was a heckuva lightweight), Carmen Basilio, Bob Fitzsimmons, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, De La Hoya, Mosley, Trinidad unifying with DLH, and later going after Hopkins, Hopkins going after Tarver while coming off losses, Michael Spinks making history against Larry Holmes, Billy Conn almost beating Joe Louis, Harry Greb being ducked by Dempsey's management after outdueling him in sparring (while beating a host of world champions in higher weight classes than him...sometimes in the same year), Mickey Walker unconscionably going after Schmeling and Sharkey after vacating the middleweight title---and so many more in boxing history---.....always looked for the absolute best opponents they could face in their divisions.

Mayweather hasn't done the same.

 

It's not how many belts you collect, it's the actual level of competition at or near their prime(s).

I believe Hatton is the first current Top 10 PFP fighter Floyd Mayweather has faced since 2002, and Hatton is coming from a lower weight class to create that.

 

You quote: " Duran - missed the best at 140,154 and lost against the best he faced - Pryor, McCallum,"

Please read the first post again. Duran published a newspaper challenge in 1978 to all champs all the way to 160. Please don't distort facts. He never fought at 140 because nobody accepted the challenge. Pryor became champ at 140 in 1980, when Duran was fighting bigger and more important game in Leonard at 147. Duran had actually moved to 147 in 1979. Once again, he went to 147 instead and fought the best PFP fighter in the sport.....Sugar Ray Leonard. He later fought Hagler for the 160 pound title, and gave Hagler problems in 1983. He lost to Benitez in 1982. Please don't even compare the careers of Duran and Mayweather and level of competition.....it's not even in the same stratosphere. Duran peaked as a lightweight, and had close to 70 professional fights by the time he moved up in weight. After 1978, it's all gravy, and thick.



You quote: "Leonard - missed the best from 140/154 - Pryor/McCallum/Hearns rematch/Hagler rematch"

Leonard never fought at 140. He beat Benitez for the 147 pound title. Unified against Hearns, while banking the 154 pound title from Kalule in 1981. The best 154 pounder in 1981 was Benitez, who Leonard had already beaten. After 3 years of retirement, Leonard beat Hagler in a close bout for the 160 pound championship. McCallum had not won a championship until 1984, when Leonard was retired.

You quote: "Armstrong/Robinson - both ducked Burley and the blk dynamite crew"

Look at the overall careers of Armstrong & SRR - Mayweather isn't in the same league in terms of quality of opposition. It's really not a worthwhile comparison

You quote: "Delahoya - Whitaker and Quartey rematches after getting gifts"

De La Hoya was farther past his prime against Mayweather than Whitaker was against De La Hoya. De La Hoya was about 3-3 in his last 6 fights before fighting Mayweather as well, if one takes into account that he actually lost to Sturm. He peaked between 140-147 pounds. De La Hoya ended up fighting a much more dangerous opponent in a pure unification match with Trinidad instead of rematching Quartey. As we know, most thought he won the fight, and he clearly won the Quartey fight by pulling that one out of the clutch in the 12th.

You quote: "Trinidad - avoided skilled boxers and schooled when he stepped up against skilled boxers"

This is rubbish. Trinidad and his father were always fighting with Don King about getting big money and name opponents prior to DLH. In the end, Trinidad & De La Hoya met when De La Hoya was near his peak, and DLH was indeed a Top 10 PFP fighter---right near the top---at that time, and a skilled technician at the time. Trinidad never avoided anyone. Don King steered him in a certain direction prior to DLH. One thing to admire about Trinidad, win, lose, or draw, he took chances against the best.

You quote: "Mosley - Agree BUT turned down Mayweather"

Show me the press release in complete context. The timing, the contract offer, who either was pending to fight at the time. All told, Mosley has fought more dangerous opposition since 2002 than Mayweather.

 

Once again, please read the first post again if you can.

1) Hatton is the first top 10 PFP fighter Mayweather has faced since 2002. Once again, look at the depth of opposition Armstrong and Robinson faced in their careers.....over a 5 year period compared to Mayweather. It's not even close.

As we all know, Burley had severe management issues. He allowed Zivic's management to buy out his contract, and that cost him. Losing to the middleweight version of Ezzard Charles hurt him, too. Charles was not yet 21 when he aced Burley twice in 1942. I've written about Burley many times in articles about his 1944 fight with Archie Moore, his series against Holman Williams, his losses to Charles, and his fights with Zivic. He, along with Sam Langford, is perhaps the best epitome of an uncrowned champ in history.

2) I already covered the DLH issue in the previous post.

3) Judah proved he wasn't top 10 by losing to Baldomir. Judah wasn't in peak for when he fought either, and has proven to be a front runner. He'd already been knocked out by Tszyu.

4) The Hernandez fight was 9 years ago. If you'd read the first post (again), I think Mayweather is right around the top of all jr. lightweights in history. Where Mayweather runs into problems is post-2002.

5) The issue with Hatton is that he didn't perform well previously at 147. Many felt he actually lost to Collazo. Collazo might've won one or two rounds against Mosley. Scores were in the range of 119-108 or 118-109.

6) I don't recall Cotto or Hatton officially turning down challenges. Please show copies of the press releases.

 

It depends on which Zivic shows up. He could fight like one of the top fighters in the sport on one night, and fight like a club fighter in his next fight.

One thing is for sure, as like many of the fighters mentioned in this thread, with the exception of some of Sugar Ray Robinson's hardball tactics at the negotiating table throughout his career, "risk and reward" is a term not often associated with many of the fighters mentioned.......especially in their primes......it does apply.....and often....to Mayweather. By the time Sugar Ray Leonard was 25, he had fought Benitez, Duran twice, and unified with Hearns. Pure, HOF opposition.

Mayweather is a very good fighter. Great skill set. One of the best 130 pounders in history. Very dedicated fighter as far as being in shape and practicing his craft. I guess in a way he's entitled to flash the fruits of his labor, although excessive ostentation creates lots of backlash. In his defense, Jack Johnson would certainly be worse than Mayweather today if he was born in 1978 instead of 1878.

Above 130, however, he's arguably 1-1 with Castillo, who was Julio Cesar Chavez's sparring partner. If Mayweather had the opportunity to fight the level of competition Duran, Leonard, Benitez, Hearns, Sugar Ray Robinson, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and the other mentioned on this thread, he'd have several losses on his ledger, some by knockout.

As it stands, Mayweather is a businessman first, and a fighter second. He looks at his opportunities, assesses the risk, and moves accordingly. He's not being as aggressive as Pacquiao, the Marquez brothers, Winky Wright, and several other fighters have been in seeking out the most elite competition possible. As stated, up until now, he has not fought a Top 10 PFP fighter since 2002, and that fighter, Ricky Hatton, arguably lost to Luis Collazo. Collazo won 1 or 2 rounds against Mosley. Once again, Oscar De La Hoya was really about 3-3 before Mayweather (he actually lost to Sturm), and who did Oscar win that 154 pound? Ricardo Mayorga.

What Mayweather needs to do, and should've done in the past, is try to unify instead of pricing himself out of fights.

 

I want an official press release that shows everything in context. Contractual obligations and other issues come into play a lot of the time, and Floyd is known for making exorbinant purse split demands for big fights while he pursues lesser fights for disproportionate reward.

 

He's a real good fighter, but to back up his claim, he needs to do more against different opposition. A lot of the criticism he received from Brian Kenny was indeed correct, although it was done in a way that brought out the worst in Floyd Mayweather. Any hint of criticism or disrespect, and he becomes viscerally angry. It's not the case with a lot of the other fighters mentioned in the thread. They didn't have to defend the picking of their opponents because they had either already fought the best, were rematching the best, or were about to fight the best.

Hopkins has become more of a businessman as he'd gotten older. In his defense, however, he was not obligated to fight Jermain Taylor, but put it on the line regardless. When he lost the decision, BOTH Hopkins & Taylor were ranked in the Top 10 PFP category by the time of their rematch. When Hopkins lost the rematch, he did what most haven't done in boxing history, went after the top, #1 light heavyweight in the world, the man who knocked out Roy Jones. He aced Tarver over 12 rounds. Very few middleweight champions have done that. Hagler didn't step up to 175, and Monzon didn't to step to 175. Sugar Ray Robinson gave it a go, and lost to Maxim, despite being ahead on the cards at the time he collapsed. Dick Tiger did it legitimately. Zale went after Conn, although Conn had vacated months before to go after Louis. Ketchel actually went after Johnson, and Walker actually went after heavyweight champions. Greb essentially beat most of the top light heavyweights in the world while he was a middleweight, and is the only man to beat Gene Tunney. All told, it's rare in contemporary boxing to do that. So, Hopkins gets more upside than Mayweather if you look at what he accomplished when he beat Tarver. With Winky Wright, I give him upside for going after Hopkins, but it really was too heavy a weight for him. If Hopkins should be doing anything, it's either fighting Chad Dawson, or being less of a businessman with Calzaghe......or retire....he's had a great career.

Jermain Taylor, despite his flaws, deserves credit for going after Hopkins when he had fought relatively anemic opposition prior to stepping up to that class. After the Hopkins fights, who does he fight? Winky Wright.....who was considered among the Top 3 PFP fighters in the sport at the time, and it was a very close fight. After that, I think he was steered incorrectly in myriad ways by fighting Ouma and Spinks. Because of his regression, I had his fight with Pavlik as pick 'em, plus the fact that Pavlik was the first puncher he had ever faced. But....this is a fighter who put it all on the line against the best fighters he could face....Hopkins twice...Wright....Pavlik (mandatory #1 after knocking out Miranda).

I gotta go. I'll check back on the board on Saturday afternoon.