Mayweather & Current Legacy

zivic1941 · Dec 9, 2007

Erratic Behavior said:

What 7 rounds did Oscar win? If you're generous to Oscar, you have it 3-2 after 5 for DLH. DLH lost round 6 when both guys went down, as Ike clearly did the better work after the 2 KDs. DLH did practically nothing from rounds 7 to 9. He stood there, way too tenative, as he would later admit that he was cautious because of Ike's punching power. Oscar has to win the last 3 rounds to win the fight, which is giving him the benefit of the doubt (I gave him 10 and 12, making it 114-113 Ike).
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We'll agree to disagree. When I watched that fight, I had it even going into the 12th round, and Oscar then pulled it out with the knockdown and near stoppage.

rekcutnevets · Dec 9, 2007

I Mayweather is too fast for the light hitting Williams. It is an interesing match though.

Willams size, and high output make for a tall order.

JohnThomas1 · Dec 9, 2007

TBooze said:

It best to evaluate a fighter at least 10 years after he has retired; not 10 minutes after his finest win.

Mayweather is good, damn good, but so was Don Curry after the McCrory fight and Gato Gonzales was a cannot miss superstar, ditto Hector Camacho...

I think Mayweather is a lot better than the examples given, but it is best to wait; hindsight should be your friend.
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Mayweather has come a helluva lot deeper than those three ever dreamed. You're right in that things will settle later tho.

Thread Stealer · Dec 10, 2007

zivic1941 said:

Floyd clearly stepped up his game in this fight compared to his wins over DLH, Baldomir, and Judah. Unquestionably, for polls that had Pacquiao as the #1 PFP fighter in the sport, that must be changed now. Floyd is the best fighter in the world.

I picked Floyd by clear UD or late stoppage (on cuts). On paper, he did close to what was expected. The conventional wisdom, which is often wrong in boxing, was correct here. What Floyd did, in my book at least, is exceed my expectations. His close out between the 8th and 10th rounds was brilliant stuff.

Although it is indeed very wise to wait and allow a fighter's legacy to soak in over time, his career does appear to be close to over, and we know how good his opposition has been thus far. Floyd, in my opinion, is on the cusp. Successful unification would put him over the top, and get him in with the top 15-20 fighters in boxing history.

Floyd is divisive for various reasons, nonetheless, and that causes issues for some in coming to crystal clear judgment.

Floyd Mayweather has a Jack Johnson mentality, and a Jack Johnson level of ring intelligence. Very smart, very subtle, and extremely tough mentally. He actually did some subtle things toying with Hatton last night, just as Johnson toyed with a lot of his opponents while not looking invulnerable in the process.

Floyd is the best fighter in the world, as Johnson was. He has also been guilty of defiantly hand picking some opponents in his career, too. In kind, he will probably continue to thumb his nose at critics, thumb his nose as he runs red lights at high speed in a car more expensive than a % of American real estate, just as the jazz thumper and Mann Act target did almost 100 years ago. As stated in another thread, imagine if Johnson was born in 1978 instead of 1878? Let's face it, he'd be a worse villain than Mayweather. The example was given in that same thread.....as the ultra-lucid Archie Moore said about Johnson, The man was a disaster to anyone who came near him. American blacks are still paying for him." Mayweather can be bad, but he's not that bad.

GBP should send him a bonus for last night, and you can expect that they'll be inclined to take it step farther than that. Too bad that they're not of the ilk of Tex Rickard.

I've been informed by an experienced and astute source that a tournament will be tough to make because Harvard alum and music industry mover and shaker, Al Haymon, manages both Mayweather and Williams.

Nonetheless................ as a rejoinder.......

If a Harvard alum, Bob Arum, can speak of putting his two guys, Margarito and Cotto, in against one another, then the other Harvard alum, Haymon. should be reminded that Mayweather and Williams can be put in with one another as well. They should both be reminded that another Harvard alum, Lou DiBella, was the catalyst in the 2001 tournament, and his 36-year-old fighter at the time, Bernard Hopkins, became much, much wealthier thereafter, while improving the sport in the process. We know that Hopkins has experienced what some may deem as lead paint brain freezes since then, but still, these types of tournaments, pitting the best against the best while jettisoning alphabet malaise, is what drives the sport to a higher level in myriad ways.

Heck, I think Mayweather deserves Oscar De La Hoya money for it. If you look at the 2004 middleweight round robin, I believe Oscar made over $30 million. He reportedly made more for losing to Mayweather this year.

Food for thought.

See you folks in late January/Early February. 2008 is looking good, and as mentioned above, it can become great with some solid, well thought out tweaks from the power brokers in the sport.
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Good post, as usual.

PowerPuncher · Dec 10, 2007

zivic1941 said:

1. As we know, there isn't clarity or purity at 147. What is best for the division isn't a win over Baldomir. I certainly hope you wouldn't compare Mayweather's challenge of Baldomir to Duran's challenge of Leonard. After all, Forrest, past his prime and injury prone over the last several years, was more impressive against Baldomir than Mayweather was at 147.

UNIFICATION---as stated previously---is the way to go. Don't get a trinket, and move on, and then start comparing yourself to Armstrong, Ali, and Robinson. If other divisions shoot for unification as we've been seeing, and Williams and Cintron were trying to unify a % in their division, why not Mayweather? Shoot, Archie Moore had wanted posters published all over the country challenging Marciano. Mayweather is not a guy who pushes the envelope like that. He's a risk assessment guy.

3. You're talking about automatic HOF guys in their primes with who Duran went after, and his fights with Hearns, Benitez, and Hagler were fought when Duran was several years past his prime, and his HOF opponents were in their primes.

4. Remember as well, Duran actually started his career as a bantamweight to super bantamweight. Armstrong started low as well, won his first title at 126 and held 126, 135, and 147 simultaneously.

5. He drew with Garcia for the middleweight crown. Much of Armstrong's defenses at 147 were fought well under that limit. 140 was actually kind of pushing it when he defended his 147 pound crown.

6. He sometimes even weighed below the lightweight limit when he defended at 147.....and he made a helluva lot of defenses there.

7) I don't like to repeat this, but as addressed in a previous post, Leonard did not avoid Pryor as a pro. He was fighting higher level pound-for-pound game in 1980 and 1981.

8) Look at the amount of Hall of Fame fighters they faced in those fighters' primes. Look at the IBHOF list......It's almost countless.

9. I hope you wouldn't compare Baldomir to Kid Gavilan. So many more examples it would be hard to list.

10. Mayweather hasn't faced a HOF fighter in that fighter's prime in his career.

11. Hatton might be the closest thing to it because he beat Tszyu, and is generally considered the top guy at 140.

12. Let's remember, Castillo was a good fighter at 135, but he was JC Chavez's sparring partner, and not mentioned among the top elite Mexican fighters in history.

13. Your point is a distortion. DLH's "performance" was against Mayorga, who had been bludgeoned so badly by Trinidad that he considered retirement. De La Hoya peaked as a welterweight in the late 1990s.

14. His next fight, listen closely, was unification against Trinidad. When Mayweather defeated Baldomir, who is a tough, but ordinary fighter, did he go after unification?

15. No. He went to DLH, who can be deemed to be 3-3 in his previous 6 fights before the match. That's part of the problem in comparing Mayweather.....he claims he's one of the greatest fighters in history....Oscar is not vociferous along those lines.....and Oscar has a deeper resume....yet PBF puts himself with the greats like Robinson and Ali. Go figure.

16) The difference with Trinidad is that when he lost, he lost to legitimate HOF opponents in their primes. Hopkins---who he was favored to beat---and Winky Wright.

178) Unquestionbably. Mosley has put himself on the line a lot more than Mayweather has. Winky Wright and Vernon Forrest were multi-talented fighters with distinct physical advantages, and in their primes. Mosley had lost to Forrest in the amateurs, and it was well known that Forrest felt he had Mosley's stylistic number, and became the Fighter of the Year for that year. When Mosley lost to Cotto, it was close, and when Mosley was far, far past his prime.
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1. Mayweather has unified ALL belts at 147 in 1 way or another and is the ONLY CHAMP at 147. Look: Baldomir (WBC/WBA/IBF), Judah (IBF), Hatton (WBA).

Your neglecting the Baldomir win, YES he wasnt a great fighter but he had the following lineage: Baldomir-Judah-Spinks-Mayorga-Forrest-Mosley-Delahoya - ignoring that lineage is stuipid

Cotto, Cintron and Williams are paper champs nothing more, if you don;t know that you haven't been paying attention. The Cotto fight MAY happen in the future if the moneys right. Cottos make a case for himself in the last year but before that it was C Class all the way.

2. FLOYD IS THE ONLY CHAMP AT 147. He has lineal rights to the WBC/WBA/IBF. Cotto/Cinton are paper belt holders and are not champs at all.

3. I don't remember Kirkland Laing being in the Hall of Fame. Mayweathers beat plenty of HOF fighters - Delahoya, Castillo, Hatton, Corrales

4. Yes and Mayweathers fought champions across as much weight range than either Armstrong/Duran. Lets not forget Armstrong won the Welter title off a lightweight and didnt fight Burley

5. ARMSTRONG DID NOT FIGHT FOR THE TRUE MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE AND HE WAS FACING A WELTER IN THAT FIGHT

6. SO WHAT, Mayweather has been outweighed by 15-20lbs on many occasions on fight night. Most of Armstrong defenses were against journeymen that made Bailey look like SRR

7. Pryor called Leonard out, Leonard didnt want the fight

8. In 20 years many of Mayweathers opponents will be HOF bound.

9. No Baldomir isnt as good as Galivan but Delahoya is as good and 2 weight classes bigger on fight night. Corrales/Castillo/Hatton/Judah are around the level of Galivan or just below.

10. Mayweather hasnt faced a Prime HOF fighter? Try Hatton/Castillo/Corrales - locks for HOF in their primes.

11. Yes Hatton beat Tyszu and Castillo

12. So what if Castillo was Chavez's sparing partner. Holmes was Alis sparing partner, does that make him poor? Castillo was ELITE at 135 not just good. He was also around 15lbs heavier than Mayweather

12. Oscar probably was at his physical peak in the late 90s but he was still in his peak in 2002, although in 2007 was a much stronger and bigger opponent, he probably hit his technical peak around 2003.

Oscar was only 34 in 2007 and had the best nutritionists/trainers and training camp money can buy. He was in excellent condition. PRIME? No, but not too many removed from it. PLUS HE PROBABLY WEIGHED 15-20lbs more on fight night

13. Mayorga was 2years removed from being Welter no1

14. YOUR MAKING YOURSELF LOOK STUPID TALKING ABOUT UNIFICATION. THE ONLY CHAMP AT 147 IS MAYWEATHER. EVERYONE ELSE ARE PAPER BELT HOLDERS. Cotto has the belt stripped from Hatton that was stripped from Baldomir. Cintron has the IBF that was stripped from Mayweather.

15. Oscar was a 154lber fighting Top3 middles. Thats why he has losses, if he was fighting 154lbers he wouldnt have losses. Lets not pretend Oscar is shot because he loses to BHOPs because no version of Oscar beats BHOPs. Oscar was fresh off beating a 2 weight champ in Mayorga. He was arguably robbed against Mosley in the second fight before he was arguably robebd he was consider no1 at 154.

16. Trinidad isnt a great fighter and never beat a prime great.

17. Corrales/Castillo/Hatton are P4P on the level of Forrest/Winky. The difference is Mayweather beat them.

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