Mayweather stood and traded with Cotto but not Pac?

I cant buy it. I would buy it if all a sudden pac was 28 and his volume dropped off bad. But older fighters of course their workrate can go down.

 

An almost thirty percent sudden drop off is not bad enough?? Then you add in a "prediction" of a big performance change by the trainer and still somehow you can't "buy it"?? Well, you don't need to "buy it" it speaks for itself.

 

I agree with you. People act like he threw 900-1,000 punches in every fight prior to 2012, and that's just not true. I mean, didn't he throw around 500 against Oscar De La Hoya?

 

This article talks about how Pac threw over 800 punches per last ten fights that went the distance. http://www.mlive.com/mayweather/2015/05/compubox_manny_pacquiao_lands.html

Against DLH he was hitting him at complete will, so he focused more on quality to get him out of there and he did. Either way, Pac had shown consistently that he could easily throw over 800 punches back then, so it's not a case where he could not have thrown that many against DLH like it appears he cannot since taking stringent testing. The difference is night and day.

 

But it's not.

Against Marquez 2 & 3, he threw mid-500's. Against Diaz, he threw 788. Against Cotto, he threw 780. Against Mosley, he threw 727. Against Bradley 1, he threw 751 punches. Against Rios, he threw 800 punches.

So, just wondering, at what point did he stop taking ped's, since you believe he did....


Pacquiao is a much more complete boxer-puncher since the Marquez KO, where he focuses on quality more than quantity.

Before the Marquez KO, he was pretty much a swarmer.

I don't see him going back to the swarmer he once was, anymore than I see Mayweather going back to stand in the pocket and trade type of fighter he once was. Perhaps if Top Rank stops putting Pacquiao in front of boxers and put him in front of a guy who will force a fight, we'll see Pacquiao throw a lot more punches.

But to your point on "night and day", the truth is... Pacquiao doesn't throw over 800 punches a lot. His range if you averaged his fights back to 2006 or so, it would be 650-750. Any fight where he threw close to 1,000, was an outlier.

 

Against Marquez he constantly has to worry about counters so I'm not surprised he is not able to get the volume he desires there. And it's obvious there still a clear big difference between tested Pac and non. Even if it is found to be only ten percent in volume difference that actually runs parallel to the kinds of gains most people think PED's give you for stamina, about a ten percent performance enhancement. And you still do not address how in the hell Freddie feels the need for preemptive excuse so bad that he is willing to actually insinuate Pac has been on PED's but the problem is taken care of now.

Not only is that a smoking gun but when you think about the reason he said it, you realize it must've been because he knew that we would be seeing a big performance difference and people would link it to stringent testing, it makes all the more clear. It's the only thing that would make sense for why he would've said any of that, because he felt the need to. You can choose to put the blinders on all you want but that's what separates tahrds from the rest of the population. I mean really, there's a lot of evidence from Pac's ducking of the testing, his performance after, and Freddie out right admits it, and people still have the nerve to deny it...I'm at loss for words.

 

So you're claiming the volume starting declining when pac entered his 30s?

Well everybody's attributes start to decline in their 30's except for strength.

 

To you and abuffy, address what Freddie said or this debate is over.

 

Freddie says the most ridiculous **** all the time and very opiniated.

A great trainer but he's a flaming idiot.

 

So it was complete chance that he would say after Pac started stringent testing, and of course it did not at all look like a preemptive excuse for why we would see a big performance in Pac? Not only did he make a preemptive excuse at the perfect time, he went as far as to insinuate they were PED's and even fired someone over them, this all just chance because "he's an idiot" Hey tinman, guess what I'm not buying??

 

That's fine if you think that.

I'm going with a guy in his 30's who was in wars with Morales and Marquez might have slipped a little and lost some of his attributes.

 

He did the smart thing, which is what you expect from the world's best boxer. That's why he made that fight look so easy. Manny NEEDS people to be stationary, stand and trade or whatever...just be there to be hit. Floyd is too smart to fall into that trap more than once or twice. He did his work and used his feet to get out of there or used the clinch before Manny could get off. Manny couldn't figure it out.

Against Cotto, he knew he was a lot faster. And Cotto blinds himself at times behind that earmuff defense. So, he found he could wing that right around Cotto's guard and Cotto couldn't see it. Now staying in the pocket with Cotto cost him a bit. Cotto has a strong jab and can box on his toes too.

 

That's all you have to say? After all the compubox punch stats I showed, you explain why Pac threw less against Marquez? Well, yeah. You're right. Pac throws less against counterpunchers. But how does that prove your point?

I gave you a timespan of his punch output variations between 2008-2013. When did he start and stop using ped's?

To me, a lot of the evidence for ped's holds no weight. It's misconstrued, misinterpreted, or embellished stories that people have heard to claim steroids. Like when Pac "ducked" testing. He never did. Pacquiao didn't want his blood drawn the day of or during the heaviest part of his training due to a past experience he had with Eric Morales when he lost.

You say we are putting on blinders, but I'm really not. I just try to find out the truth of the accusations and turns out, all of them have quite reasonable explanations with supportive evidence to back it up.

 

Did Freddie ever say Pacquiao was on steroids? Nope. Did Pacquiao ever fail a drug test? Nope. There you go

 

Hahahaha