McVey Has Better Record During Johnson's Reign Than Jeannette

Just gone through Sam McVey's form against top fighters during Jack Johnson's title tenure ,[ Dec 1906-April1915].

I've come to the conclusion that he sits at number 2 out of the original Murderers Row during this period.
Langford is clearly the number one,but without checking I would probably have placed Jeannette at number two, their respective results have changed my opinion on that.


Sam Mcvey
1909
Jan W Joe Jeannette
April L Joe Jeannette* [Jeannette's biggest win,[a retirement stoppage ]
Jun W Jim Barry
Dec D Joe Jeannette

1910
Feb W Al Kubiak
Aug D Battling Jim Johnson[BJJ]
Nov W BJJ

1911
April D Sam Langford
Oct W Bill Lang
Dec W Sam Langford

1912
Mar W Jim Barry
April L Sam Langford
Sep L Sam Langford
Oct L Sam Langford
Dec L Sam Langford

1913
Mar D Sam Langford
April W Colin Bell
Dec W Colin Bell

1914
JunW Arthur Pelkey
Dec W BJJ
Dec W Harry Wills
1915 Feb W BJJ.

Johnson loses title in early April to Willard

Three fights with Jeannette one win, one loss and a draw.
Two fights with Jim Barry , both wins.
Jeannette had one win and a draw against Barry.

Three fights with BJJ . Two wins , one draw ,one win by ko.
Jeannette had 7 fights with BJJ winning 4 ,drawing two, but losing one too.

A ko over Bill Lang in their only fight.
Two stoppages over Colin Bell in two fights.
Jeannette also stopped Bell
A ko win over Al Kubiak in their only fight.

Jeannette beat Kubiak on points in one fight but drew the other.
A ko win over Arthur Pelkey in their only fight
A win over Harry Wills who had drawn with Jeannette and Langford 6 months earlier.

McVey fought Langford seven times during this period,losing 4 times, drawing two and ,doing something Jeannette couldn't do winning one.

On balance I think he deserves the number two spot out of the black challengers for Johnson's title
Anyone agree ,disagree?

 

I posted something similar recently. Got shot down if I remember correctly.

 

Jeanette didnt stop Bell, he won a hotly disputed decision.

 

Thanks for the info which rather reinforces my opinion!:good

 

At least the trawling through records has made up my mind for me.

 

Wasn't Mcvey's win over Langford hotly disputed?

 

The ink below indicates that there was not big money for two blacks to fight in Australia.
"McVea had arrived in Australia in August of 1911, along with fellow African-American boxers Jack Johnson, the current world's heavyweight champion (which he had won in Australia two years earlier), and Sam Langford, the current "colored" heavyweight champion. The party had been assembled by promoter and manager D. McIntish, who's plan consisted of a seasonal tour of the country before finishing up with first a Johnson title defense against McVea, to be followed by a match between the winner and Sam Langford. "


"During the previous four years he'd spent in Eurupe, McVea had been practically unstoppable, recording 29 wins (not including his victory over Tano Matsuda in a mixed fight), 2 draws, and 1 defeat. His single loss had come on April 17th, 1909 against Joe Jeannette, in a match that was reported to have been "the greatest fight witnessed in France since John L. Sullivan fought Charley Mitchell". [EN2] In an earlier match that year, McVea had defeated Joe to claim the "colored" heavyweight crown. The rematch was a grueling affair with some sources reporting 38 knockdowns, 27 of which were by McVea against Jeannette. Eventually balloons full of oxygen had to be given to the competitors for them to continue.

By virtue of oxygen pumped into them by their seconds, Jeannette and MacVey reeled and staggered through forty-eight rounds of a brutal and plucky fight here tonight. At the opening of the forty-ninth round MacVey, his face utterly dehumanized save for an expression of helpless agony that distorted what remained of his features, signified that he was unable to continue, whereupon the referee declared Jeannette the winner."
​

"The two met for a third time on December 11, 1909, the match ending in a draw after "only" 20 rounds, allowing Jeannette to retain the championship. Even with his failure to recapture the title, McVea's resume during this time made him the most obvious contender for Johnson.


Unfortunately, for McVea, audiences weren't that enthusiastic to pay to see two African-Americans fight for the title. Unable to draw a large enough crowd to cover the promised purses - £18,000 a fight for Johnson, £6,000 for McVea, and £1,000 for Langford, in addition to their percentages - the fight was abandoned. Instead, Johnson returned to the States to meet another "white hope", the role being filled this time by Fireman Jim Flynn.
As McVea and Langford watched their opportunity to meet Johnson, and the money that came with it, pass from within their grasps, they tried to make the best of their situation. They booked a series of matches against each other in Sydney, Brisbane, and Perth for the "colored" heavyweight championship, now held by Langford. While McVea won the first fight on December 26,1911, reclaiming the title, the next year he lost four straight to the "Boston Tar Baby". Their final contest on March 24,1913 ended in a draw, but the damage to McVea's drawing power was done. While Langford could thereafter tour Australia screening and narrating the film of his victories, McVea ended up returning to a style of fighting he had sworn off"

 

McVey dropped Langford in the 3rd rd.
This paper gave
Rds
1 E
2 E
3.Mcvey
4 no score
5 McVey
6th to 9th McVey in front.
10 E
11 Langford
12 Langford
Langford aggressive from then on, but out boxed by McVey.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...xInAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YgMGAAAAIBAJ&pg=5228,6960083

 

Pshh...Yeah, sure you do. :roll:

 

This is extremely interesting. Going very quickly off boxrec, does this mean that Bell Drew with Langford, arguably beat Jeanette and also went 16 with McVey? Maybe he was not too far off their class?

I would have thought Jim Johnson probably might deserve consideration in this discussion as well. Especially since Johnson ended up choosing him over all three. In time, i think i might look at Johnson during this period as well, but it would be good if McVey or some others did a bit of a comparison. I am going off to do some short reading about Bell's record against these guys.

 

Here is an unrecorded (boxrec at least) bout between bell and McVey. McVey seems to have won by early KO and Lang broke his ankle. This looks to have put him out for about 3 months just before the Jeanette fight.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18055082?searchTerm=colin bell mcvey&searchLimits=

Here is a pretty good article which mentions Bell as a great white hope. Also interesting reference was made to George Cotton and the new Hank Griffin as Black hopes.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/129940902?searchTerm=colin bell mcvey fight&searchLimits=

 

Colin Bell is a rather intruiging boxer capable of holding his own with anyone on a given night , but also of losing to rather ordinary foes.

Please post what you find out.

Johnson picked McVey as the most dangerous of the three according to comments in Denzil Batchelor's book.

Batchelor ascribed this as an attempt to throw the spotlight off of Langford.

Langford certainly has the most impressive resume.
Jim Johnson seems to have been short changed in the reputation stakes his record suggests he could at least hold his own with Jeannette on most nights. Just checked Graeme Kent's book The Great White Hopes,Bell does not feature much , but on page 196 /197 Kent says.

"A more genuine claimant was Australian heavyweight Colin Bell.
He came to GB in 1914 ,supposedly the winner of over 30 contests,and never having been knocked out.
Actually a year earlier he had been stopped twice inside the distance back home by Sam Mcvey, but McVey was so ferocious and such a scourge of white fighters that a loss to him hardly counted."
"May 4th 1914 Colin Bell went in with the outstanding black American Joe Jeannette.
It was taken as a sign of Jeannette's confidence that only two nights earlier he had knocked out Kid Jackson in 7 rounds, in Paris.

Everyone expected the Australian to go under early in the fight.
Instead he fought doggedly and went the distance,and there were even cries of dissent when the American was given the decision after 20 rds.

Bell's display was so good that in June 1914 he was matched with Bombadier Billy Wells at Olympia.
Wells was making one of his almost annual comebacks, this time after being stopped in the first round a few fights before by the Frenchman Georges Carpentier".

" Bell showed no sign that he was fit to be in the ring with even a faded White Hope like Wells.The Australian was knocked out in 2 rds.Spectators wondered out loud how a man who could push Jeannette all the way could have crumbled so quickly before the Bombadier.

The answer came some time later from hints dropped by an indiscreet Jeannette. The black fighter let it be known to friends that he had been paid to make Bell look as good as possible in their contest, to build up interest in a Wells/ Bell bout."

How much of that is true I have no idea .Perhaps Klompton may be able to enlighten us?

 

I think Bell is probably underrated but his chief assets seemed to be his conditioning and athleticism. I think Jim Johnson was outside of the skill/class range of the big 4. He was big and strong but crude and somewhat lumbering.

 

So do I, but everything points to him being a spoiler.

The John Ruiz of his era.

 

Big strong, crude, and somewhat lumbering .He'd fit right in today then .