Media Spotlight: Sherdog's Zuffa Centric Bias Exposed

Being able to draw a MMAth route to those names is not the same as actually having them involved as has happened at LHW, form, decline, style and the fighting enviroment still have a massive effect on results.

I guess Houston > Lil Nog because he beat Soko?

 

atsch:roll::tired

 

Honiestly I'v felt like doing that with some of the simplistic BS you've been posting in this thread that yes we all understand perfectly well.

I'm sorry but however you want to spin in a few bits of MMAth does not mean the UFC HW division is in the same position as Prides was. If for example the UFC had only signed Shogun at LHW after the Pride takeover and would it have been realistic to claim there division was clearly superior because he lost to Forrest? Not only would that be a very limated number of matchs but just like Nog and Crocop today Shoguns performance would be brought into question.

What allowed the UFC LHW division to truely establish a dominant position wasnt only signing Shogun but also Wanderlei, Rampage, Lil Nog and Hendo. Thats not happened at HW with Fedor, Sylvia, Werdum, AA, Barnett etc all ending up elsewhere.

Just answer me this though, do you believe Nog and Crocop today are at the same level they were in Pride?

 

Which is why I said that your making a mistake in logic. That the only way at this current stage for someone like Fedor or Overeem to be highly ranked is to take part in the UFC. Even though the UFC's own criteria is not necessarily to sign the best fighters. But to sign and promote the most marketable ones, or ones that can open doors to new markets, while releasing good fighters, or more expensive fighters, or seemingly fighters who might be threatening to a marketable fighter. Need I bring up Henderson vs. Bisping? Was it about money, marketability, or a combination of all things? This isn't an org who which does all it can to hold onto, pursue, and sign only the best of the best fighters necessarily, get it? There's a big aspect of the org which takes marketability into consideration. If it comes down to showing/signing/airing a marketable fighter or a proven great fighter who is somewhat popular, or a fighter with incredible potential who is less popular, who have they shown, and what route have they gone?

Even if someone like Lesnar were to leave the UFC, and be dominated in an even more impressive fashion than he was by Cain, your criteria doesn't leave much room for it to matter much. The thing is, there is no easy way to give a lb for lb ranking between orgs. What we can do is have an idea of fighters history, their records, and how they have looked recently, absolutely. There is also the concept of considering what a fighters pedigree is, a bit like a scout for any sport might. Isn't this how odds are made in Vegas? Perhaps we would get better odds if we were to set up one of these mythical matchups and then see what the odds in Vegas would be in order to get some sort of honest ranking. Vegas, money might give us the best criteria, but again, we would need to set up matches for this to work.

Overeem has been taking part in K1, as Fedor has been taking part in Sambo. Historically, Fedor has been a Sambo fighter and a Judoka, which translates over to MMA in a significant way, though some people *cough* fail to take this sort of thing into consideration.

What we have seen in recent fights with Overeem is his ability to control fights on his feet, and his level of gnp as far as MMA. His size and lankiness allows him to mount a rather unique side mount gnp in MMA. His K-1 performances speak for themselves as to the credibility, technical level, and power of his striking. That he was able to virtually throw around a 270+ lb man, a man who was able to put pressure on Fedor should say something as well. But, to you it doesn't, because you fail to take certain things into consideration, criteria of how you would rate these fighters.. I think I have illustrated your mistake already.

Between two different orgs, there is no easy way to judge fighters. But, to make the criteria such that one fighter must participate in another in order to improve rank is a mistake, a fallacy as I mentioned.

 

There is no way possible you can take their competition in sports other than MMA into consideration for MMA rankings. Does that mean James Toney the current IBO heavyweight champion of the world should have walked into the UFC with a top ten ranking in his first fight?

Their competition in other sports is what help keep Fedor and OVereem's skills sharp for MMA. In a head to head face off I would still pick Fedor over any heavyweight but I think Overeem would have his hands full with Velazquez. But as far as rankings go Fedor just lost to a fighter that lost to the current number one contender in the UFC. Overeem has beaten only Brett Rogers who is NOT EVEN RANKED currently. You can not in any way shape or form justify Fedor, Werdum or Overeem as the top heavyweight fighter.

 

You answer me this. Did Crocop and Nogueira enter the UFC as the consensus number two and four (or perhaps three) top heavyweight fighters. And did they then in fact lose?

 

They did indeed but did Nog look like anything close to the fighter who'd earnt that #2 rank vs Mir? Did Crocop look like anything close to the fighter who earnt the #3 spot vs JDS?

If you don't believe that Nog and Crocop were at their former level then your pretty much admiting your arguement for the UFC's "dominance" at HW isnt based on your belief of its quality but rather manipulation of a very limated number of stats.

 

There's your answer.

 

Crocop looked exactly as he did when he was forced to fight off his back foot against Fedor in that fight vs JDS except that JDS stopped him while Fedor couldn't.

Crocop looked every bit the killer when he entered the UFC in his first fight against Sanchez. It wasn't until he had his head knocked off by Gonzaga that his decline began I think largely in part due to a debilitating injury caused by the way he fell after he was KO'd.

And Nogeuira looked every bit the NOgueira in his UFC fights. It wasn't until his poor performance against Mir that he started to appear in steady decline - but then in his next fight against Couture he looked every the Nogueira that soundly beat Herring or Coleman or whomever in Pride. If your criteria for a fighter being in decline is the fact that he lost then Nogueira would have been shot the minute he fought Fedor and lost. He certainly looked horrible in that fight as well.

 

I dont know what fighter you were watching but prime CroCop and nog were totally different.

 

No they weren't. I've shut the book on you guys. :deal

 

You are making a mistake in considering Overeem a K-1 fighter before he is an MMA fighter. Overeem already has a history in MMA, had taken part in MMA prior to his K-1 career. So what can we do? We can look at his MMA career and judge his strengths. He is a guy who remains weak off his back, yes? But, what we can look at as far as his k-1 participation is the potential of his striking.

The same goes for guys with potential in MMA who are wrestling standouts. However, in this case we are dealing with a guy who already has MMA experience.

As for Fedor, it doesn't really matter what he cross trains in. He has already been to the top of the mountain and stood there for many years. That a fighter beats him is tribute that persons abilities.

What we can gather from Brett Rogers is that he is a bonafide heavy who is legitimately dangerous in his striking and gnp. Yes, he is very rough around the edges and not very refined. But, he is still a 260+ lb man. What we can gather from Overeems strength is that it is legit.

We saw Rogers strength in his fight with Fedor, and his raw power in his various knockouts. To see this man get manhandled, as if his strength were nothing actually has meaning as far as judging Overeem..

If we were Vegas scouts, watching Overeem as a potential match vs. someone like Cain. We would take all this information into account before going about creating odds, etc.

You make like this sort of thing is out of the realm of possibility, because you make the choice to use the UFC's and Sherdog's Criteria.

But, if we are to realistically judge fighters who fight in different orgs, we need to do what we can to have an objective look at their strengths, weakness and potential. That is all.

None of this oddball criteria that the only way they can possibly even be compared is if they take part in another org.

If tomorrow, The UFC and all other orgs had a showdown, people would listen to the Vegas rankings and what scouts are saying. Not Dana White.

The truth is where the money/odds would be in this situation.

 

Well there you have the main disagreement, I don't think either Nog or Crocop looked near to the level they were at in Pride.

Nog beating Randy sadly says more about Couture's level by that stage than his own. Watch that fight again and Randy beats Nog to the punch thoughout the match just lacks the power to hurt him.

Do what I said go back and rewatch(or watch? ) Nog/Sergei and Nog/Mir and tell me he's at the same level in both matches, of all places I'd expect a boxing forum to be where I'd get an honiest answer on that but seemingly not.

The fact is that the legend that Nog always took a beating is just that a legend, in reality while he could clearly take punishment his boxing resulted in him taking very few plum shots standing in Pride. You could see the signs that things were changing before Mir aswell, he may have beaten Sylvia but was clearly an easier target and that was 11 months before he faced Mir.

 

This is simply nonesense. I hope you dont really believe that.:nono

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It is definetly true that the nog of today is not the same of the pride org the simple fact that he has been ko'd twice now is proof of that. cro cop clearly does not have the killer instinct that he used to have, no motivation at all, his age is probably also a factor.