Men you'd take to stop Lyle?

Anything but Povetkin vs Norton lol

 

Holmes in 10

 

To think this guy who people are picking Walcott, Weaver, Coetzee and Poverkin to run over or stop is Foreman’s one and only demonstration as the “King Of Sluggers” and it was a life and death effort. Louis and Tyson would stop this guy EASILY, James Toney could do it NP - Walcott yes, Povetkin yes I’d say even Pinklon Thomas has decent odds but definitely wins (probably lol) Gerry Cooney again, Andy Ruiz, AJ, Vitali, Douglas… I could go on and I will! - Parker, Zhang, Whyte - Holyfield gets him, Holmes too, Kabeyal (spelling?) Max Baer, Earnie Shavers (run it again decent odds) Tyson Fury… HEAPS

 

Where do you come off saying Shaves , with 70 Ko's in 76 wins was a terrible finisher ? Do you realize how ill informed you sound parroting this ? He KO'ed Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis, Howard Smith, Henry Clark , Roy Williams and Ken Norton ... in his prime who didn't he KO ? Ali and Holmes ? He did hurt Ali and Holmes as bad as either has very been hurt .. post Holmes he was fast past his prime so the quote a terrible finisher is simply wrong.

 

@he grant I couldn’t be bothered typing it all out BUT this is what it would’ve looked like only much worse off written, SRS a novice Young might be his greatest showcase of finishing… reminds me of when people call Foreman “the great” finisher…. Who’d he finish? He didn’t get Young when he had him in trouble he got Lyle after life and death after both almost killed each other, Norton and Frazier don’t require much to find and have no survival instincts. All names no context.

 

Interesting that I've never before sen a case for Shavers not being a puncher. Congrats for the the first ... Post Homles he was over 34 and wearing down .. just like Joe Louis who couldn't finish off anyone in his comeback ..and like Marciano and Dempsey who were retired by that age ... that's why the age is relative.

 

And I feel your argument is flat out wrong ... you blow off everyone he KO'ed and hold him far past prime for accountable .. I think it's a poor argument.

 

Foreman was defying circumstances that would drown majority fighters in history (new trainer, layoff, a period of depression, clear attempt at forcing new style and persona as he tried in various tv-shows back at the time) against a consistently top ten ranked fighter coming off of a win against another ranked man in Shavers.

Lyle was not a bad showing for Foreman, and neither is not stopping one of the slick wizards in Young, who was stopped in his prime by whom exactly? Cooney on cuts when Young was sliding, or Shavers when he was still forced into the gutsy Philly style. Foreman was the only man to stop Peralta at heavyweight, stopped Chuvalo (albeit George wanted to continue; Frazier did it when Chuvalo had broken orbital bone or something along the line, and per George was damaged good at the time), found and stopped all the smaller, nimbler man even when they tried to circle or outright run like Roman, and Norton, him not being a stick and move fighter notwithstanding, was one of the best heavyweight shows of ring geometry and generalship found on film.

Ali and Young would make a lot of great fighters look poor, and I reckon James would do better than say Byrd against the likes of Ibeabuchi. That's how high I think of him.

 

Yes but when you throw out calling him a great finisher and a great ring cutter you need to have better results then…. Norton and Frazier then… Lyle? Which guys did he cut the ring against so well that it was actually a feat?it certainly wasn’t Young, it most certainly wasn’t his finishing that saved the day when he had him on the hook! - now where can we go looking for other examples? We can’t, because 70s Foreman fought like 4? good fighters lol so if you let him off for Young what’s left? Norton and Frazier… life and death with Lyle he has such a limited 70s resume that it works as an easy shield to say “this doesn’t count because he was sad and I think XYZ 5 excuses etc look how good he did over here for 2 fights!” lol

 

Reducing the circumstances of his comeback fight after Zaire being Lyle to him being just 'sad' is unfair Journ. Imagine Joshua coming back to fight a massive ranked puncher who just beat another all-time great hitter in a slugfest.. except right after he himself switched trainers and was coming off of a huge loss and a layoff. Similarly, imagine Lewis doing that after his upset loss to McCall and switching to Emmanuel Stewart. Wouldn't happen. Didn't happen. Rarely happens as far as the heavyweight goes.

Circumstances, action, and the Rocky-like grit made it the Ring's Fight of the Year and the 4th round is consistently named in one of the most exciting rounds in the heavyweight boxing.

Sure, George doesn't have a marquee finish like say Lois has of Conn (though even Joe failed to find Walcott in their first fight, and might not have found him the second bout either had the referee not threatened Jersey to engage more up close; similarly Conn was caught after trying to knock Joe out, leading to one of the more ruthless heavyweight finishes.) On the other hand, who did he not cut the ring on? Young and Ali were the kind of fighters who thrived on the terms Foreman tried to put them in, which is part of the reason they did so well. Every other man was found and finished. He has the sole stoppage of Peralta at heavyweight, he stopped Chuvalo (and even at that stage of his career he was clearly drilled in turning fighters towards the ropes as they clinched, which is part of what made people call him a ring general), he finished Frazier and Norton in two with Kenny being a surgical bout that is further underrated as far as deconstructing the crossguard goes (and with Archie in his corner he would absolutely demolish every use of such defense style on sight, be it Cooper or Norton), and while there are voices criticizing George for often fighting 200 or sub 200 lbs fighters, there is a flip coin of those fighters naturally having faster-feet and being nimbler and smaller targets, which never stopped Foreman from being in-control and where he wants. He passes the eye-test every time I rewatch his career as far as my personal opinion goes.


Having a day off and a paycheck in my hand so I'm going through the Ali books. Frazier praised Foreman's ring cutting, and there is definitely a quote of Ali saying he wouldn't outcircle George.

 

You’re just saying the same thing… okay let’s make this clear.

Cutting the ring against:
Frazier
Norton
Lyle
Chuvalo
Not impressive

Cutting the ring against:
Young
Ali
Peralta (mildly)
Could be Impressive but no good happened… where was it? Norton demonstrated better ring cutting lol.

Verdict? He’s clearly demonstrated not in quotes and “I think so-ism’s” but on film as having not close to “great” ring cutting.

GF’s “vicious finishing ability” is over a small, shot undersized come forward guy, Chin Norton, Ron Lyle (life and death) and Chuvalo, Chuvalo was durable but target practice for good fighters… GF to his credit eventually caught up to and got Peralta (he was green at the time but Peralta was also a tiny and only decent fighter) …GF outweighed him by 20lbs…

I’m not saying he’s useless at cutting the ring and finishing guys but “great” or it being a stand out feature? Thats nonsense especially when he needed it most against Young it was nowhere to be seen, please don’t give me “he was changing styles!” Rollin he was getting his @$$ handed to him, if he could’ve reverted to his primary way of fighting and done the job he would’ve.

 

'I-think-so-ism' is a cheap shot and saying I repeat myself (when we clearly both do across multiple threads because there is a fundamental difference in how we view the effect of weight, how impressive certain achievements are, and we don't even align when it comes to the eye test) is as well. You want me to nitpick? How is Chuvalo, one of the best heavyweight chins, never down, and stopped only twice by Frazier and Foreman (and Joe caught him after a sparring partner busted his orbital bone with an elbow as far as I'm aware) suddenly a punching bag when George stopped him? Peralta who was only stopped at heavyweight by a greener Foreman despite fighting Bonavena and Lyle twice (once when he was an old man) is only mildly impressive, because you have to find and maul Conn, Tunney, Walcott, Byrd, Young, or Usyk to be go beyond that, right? Foreman is a bully with 20lbs weight advantage, except being faster, nimbler, more defensively orientated target was exactly what made the damn LHW Billy Conn clown and nearly upset Joe Louis before he decided that he will knock him the hell out. At the same time Bonavena was taking on the likes of Frazier and Lyle in trenches without being dropped while accuracy and speed of Ellis and Ali put him on the canvas numerous times. Sizes and weight have their merits and drawbacks, despite more often than not being something of a no-brainer advantage.

I think you binarize all the levels and nuances of boxing to disqualify George.

And you want to see how whining and making excuses for Foreman would look like? He fought Ali in the middle of nowhere negotiated by Don King with a military dictatorship, in a ring that collapsed in a stream of mud and **** because it was built in a place unprepared for such event. It was in the middle of the monsoon season in Kongo with combination of heat and high humidity that is a killer to athletes, because sweat, the main cooling system of our bodies, does not evaporate as efficiently, or if not for the humidity it's at the very least insanely hot. Guess whose style is favored here: relaxed, veteran boxer noted for being an escape artist by the likes of Archie Moore, or the seek-and-destroyed puncher who had to rely on his physical attributes to make up for picking up boxing when Ali was the heavyweight champion of the word. The same man who did not spar for three weeks prior to the bout because a sparring partner opened a gash by sticking an elbow in his face (and the fight was under immense pressure to alight with the time demands of the military dictatorship, because Rumble co-starred as a touristic event with a music festival, and was generally a difficult place for high-profile guests to fly to again. Similarly Cosell noted how both Young and Foreman were dripping in sweat during their bout in Puerto Rico (the country has usual relative humidity of above 70 even in March when their fought) and resembled the Robinson-Maxim bout in which Ray was beaten by the heat and found himself delirious, screaming 'I'm not crazy!' after the bout. Foreman had a severe heat-stroke as well, and just like Robinson, would innately deplete faster in such conditions due to his style. Maxim and Young might have been under the same sun, but one being a defensive spoiler, and the other the much bigger man not pressed to take the title from the champion, benefitted in such circumstances.

Except George signed the contract. The end of the story. That being said, your insistence on ignoring the circumstances of the Lyle bout is biased.