Mendoza and John Thomas' Larry Holmes thread

This is an initial two-way conversation between John Thomas and me. I kindly ask the good posters of East Side Boxing not post comments in this thread until both parties have completed the process.

The format of the debate is this.


Step 1) We each answer the four questions.

Step 2 ) Then we each get one rebuttal to how the other person answered questions in full quote context only. This means if you must fully quote the other person’s reply to each of the 4 questions.

Step 3 ) And finally issue a closing statement, which is not open for a rebuttal by either person.

It is a three step, three-post thread. I have a wedding to attend, so Saturday is out for me. Friday morning is open, and Sunday afternoon is open. Due to a promotion at work, my posting time will be limited during the weekdays for quite sometime. I would like to wrap the thread up by Tuesday Night if possible. I re-formatted the questions to read like questions


THE QUESTIONS:



1 ) Where does Holmes not fighting Page register on the radar screen in boxing history of fights that could have been made?







2 ) Holmes opponents defeated Page during the mid 1980’s, so how good Page?






3 ) While I agree that Page deserved a shot for a brief 1-1.5 year window in time, Holmes took another fight to fight an undefeated fighter for more money. How do you interpret this?





4 ) Holmes as an older fighter fought Withepsoon in 1983, Smith in 1984, and Spinks in 1985. Clearly, he fought some good fighters. Are these three fighters more accomplished than Page?






>I am ready when John Thomas is ready.

 

I will see if I can submit my reply to the 4 questions today. Then its your turn. No worries, I have some stuff that happened from 1982-1985 regarding the questions that are not past tense...and I have never posted them before.

 

THE QUESTIONS:

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The history of boxing dates back longer than most organized sports. Currently boxing has 17 different weight classes, with 1000’s of recorded championship fights. To list all of the title fights that could have been made but never materialized would push the limits of the 10,000-character space per post in the forum. No champion who reigned as long or longer than Holmes did ( 1978-1985 ) fought all the top ranked contenders as champion. There are always a few fights that never materialized. The reasons why big fights do not materialize are numerous as well, but the major ones are injury, lack of money to be made in the fight vs what else is out there, one fighter dying young or incarcerated, and boxing / world politics. Holmes was at his peak at the when Alphabet politics was at its peak. Boxing fans are all too familiar on missing great fights. A modern day example would be Roy Jones vs Darius Michalczewski.

If we were to examine the heavyweight division alone, the following championship (defined ideal as lineal or at least one with a respected belt at stake) with great interest could have been made:

John L. Sullivan vs Peter Jackson, John L. Sullivan vs Frank Slavin. Jim Corbett vs Peter Jackson. Jack Johnson vs Sam Langford, Jack Johnson vs Sam McVey, Jack Johnson vs Joe Jeaentte, Jack Johnson vs Gunboat Smith, Jack Dempsey vs Harry Wills. Jack Dempsey vs Harry Greb. Harry Wills vs George Godfrey. Joe Louis vs Elmer Ray. Rocky Marciano vs Nino Valdes. Floyd Patterson vs Cleveland Williams. Muhamed Ali vs Telifo Stevenson, Muhamed Ali vs Geroge Foreman II, Joe Frazier vs Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier vs Ernie Shavers. Mike Tyson vs Tim Witherspoon, Mike Tyson vs David Tua. Foreman 90’s vs Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe vs Lennox Lewis, Lennox Lewis vs Ike Ieachbuchi, Lewis vs V. Klitschko II……..etc. I have little doubt this list could be expanded on to the point of becoming its own thread with multiple tangents attached to it.

Nevertheless, to answer the question Holmes not fighting Page does not seem to be of the same magnitude of interest or significance of the above fights that never happened.

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Holmes defeated Berbick ( 1981 ), Witherspoon ( 1983 ), Bey ( 1985 ). These three ranked contenders all defeated Greg Page from 1982-1984, which happened to be Page’s peak years. While defeating a ranked opponent who beat fighter " x "does not guarantee a victory over fighter ' x ", there is a definite correlation when one defeats three ranked opponents who all happened to defeat fighter " x " .

Page final ring record was 58-17-1. He was born in October 1958. By October 1993, Page was 35 years old. Let us only look at Page fights from age 34 and under.

Aside from the three contenders, that Holmes defeated that defeated Page ( Berbick, Witherspoon, and Bey ) , Page lot to the likes of……. Tony Tubbs, Buster Douglas, was TKO’d by a 5-5-1 fighter in Mark Willis in 1986, Joe Bugner, lost to Orlin Norris, lost again to Mark Willis 10-9-1 via TKO, Lost TKO to Ruddock, lost to Daminai, and was TKO’d by Bruce Seldon. If you tally it all up, Greg Page was defeated 11 times before his 35th birthday.

To balance the scales, we must look at Page’s best wins. They are Tills, Coetzee, Snipes, a declining Young, a 39 year old James Smith, and a split decision win over James Board in a fight where both men hit the deck. This is 6 wins.

The elementary deduction is Page lost to more quality fighters than he beat, so it would be difficult to argue Page as a great fighter in his decade. Moreover, Greg Page is best viewed as an inconsistent ranked contender who lost more often than not to ranked opponents.

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Page had a decent 1983, and a career win over Coetzee in 1984. However, Page lost two fight in a row before beating Coetzee to Witherspoon and Bey, and lost two in a row after beating Coetzee to Tubbs and Douglas. It is difficult to say such a fighter earned a title shot because at best he was only viewed as a hot commodity for a short period in time. In boxing, it is very rare to see a fighter get a world title shot when he lost his last fight. Holmes vs Page could have been made in 1983. However Holmes was offered 1.5 million dollars more to fight Frazier instead of Page. 1.5 million dollars is a lot of money today, and in the 1980’s, even a great sum of money when inflation was factored in. I cannot think of many fighters who would take another fight for significantly less money. Had Don King come up with 1.5+ more for Holmes vs Page, we might have seen that fight instead, but he did not. Holmes and Don King were often at odds. Holmes opted to fight Frazier instead for 1.5 million more. Frazier himself was un-defeated fighter coming off a nice win. Having a famous last name did not hurt his marketing either. By 1983 Holmes had already accomplished a lot in the WBC. By moving to the IBF as un-defeated linear champion, and facing quality fighters, Holmes legitimized the IBF belt. The fight with Frazier was the first step toward accomplishing that.

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Spinks is a linear heavyweight belt holder with just one loss on his record. Spinks wins over Holmes, and Cooney top any win Page ever had.

Witherspoon was two-time world champion. Aside from beating Page, Witherspoon defeated Bruno, Carl Williams, Tubbs ( who also beat Page ) James Smith, Snipes, and Tills.

Smith holds wins over Witherspoon, Bruno, Bey ( who beat Page ), Weaver, and Ribalta.

Both Spinks ad Witherspoon me the cut in Ring Magazine’s 50 greatest heavyweights. IMO, Smith’s wins over Burno, Witherspoon, and Weaver are better than Page’s three best wins over Cotezee, Snipes and Tills. Yes—I think Spinks, Witherspoon, and Smith are more accomplished than Page.

 

Bumped. Mr. Thomas, it is your turn. I answered the four questions. After you answer yours, each of us gets one rebuttal, then after that a conclusion.

 

Fair enough. You can rebutt as long as what I said is in full quote context.

 

I will reply later on tonight.