Mendoza and John Thomas' Larry Holmes thread

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Mendoza's Rebuttal: You did not even answer the question! It was

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To sweep the question under the rug, call it " shallow " and then ignore a direct question that both must reply to is a weakness in debate. I will address the context of the question, then re-butt what John Thomas has said.

Clearly, Holmes not fighting Page does not register on the radar screen in boxing history of fights that could have been made, except for those who have bones to pick or choose to look at things under the microscope. Mr. Thomas chose to skip this question because he knows the true answer undermines whatever he is going to say.

No one called Holmes charming. What Holmes says can be taken out of context. Examples are numerous. For example, Holmes said Don King wears his hair high to hides the horns. Holmes also says he loves Don King and Don King can make your rich. See my point? Two very different takes on the same person. When Holmes said to hell with the contenders, he was essentialy saying show me the money, and I’ll fight them. You don’t manage me, and tell me to take fights for less money. I fight for the money, and the money is influenced by public demand.

The biggest demand for Holmes was to meet Cooney. That was the fight that brought the money, and Cooney was precieved more even more dangerous than Page. The eyes of the boxing world were fixated on Las Vegas on June 11, 1982. Don King was there and to quote Holmes, there were not enough accountants to count all the M-O-N-E-Y. History remembers Holmes TKO’d Cooney in the 13th round, but what they forget is Greg Page was on the under card! It was a Don King special. Matching his up and coming fighter on the under card of a big fight in hopes to fight the champion next. However, Don King was thrown a curveball. Trevor Berbick, a fighter Holmes soundly defeated to the tune of 15-0 on one judges card easily handled Greg Page on the undercard of Holmes vs Cooney. Since Holmes had already soundly defeated Berbick, there was no cry for a re-match. Had Greg Page beaten Terror Berbick on the Holmes vs Cooney undercard, the interest in the fight, as well as the M-O-N-E-Y would have been great. However, as it was Berbick had an easy time winning 8 of 10 rounds on two of the judges’ card. Greg Page’s performance was average at best. Berbick took Page’s “ 0 “ , and there was not a big demand for Holmes vs Page anytime soon. Fighters do not get title shots after a loss. Page needed a come back.

John Thomas says Page appeared to have turned the corner…..Um, no, he did not. Page was a fat 238 ( 17 more than he was a few months ago for Berbick ) pounds for his come back fight vs Tills. Tills had a bloated Page down in round two but won in 8. Then Page failed to stop a no name in Larry Frazier. Page got in better shape at 227, and beat Snipes on points, but just as Page appeared to be back on track with a checkered win over Tills he ballooned up to 239 pounds and lost to Witherpsoon in 1983….then lost again to David Bey! Does anyone here think a shaky win over Tills, and a win over Snipes is worthy of a title shot? Not me. Page was written off, but came from Oblivion to KO Coeztee. All of a sudden Page was a hot ticket for the moment. Then he fought again and lost back to back fights to Tubbs, and Dougals. History records Page was "1 win 4 losses " in a key stretch of fights vs Witherspoon, Bey, Coetzee, Tubbs and Douglas. UGH.

What chance would Page really have vs Holmes? John Thomas says Page had a vautned right hand. Page’s vaunted power didn’t save him vs Witherpsoon, Bey, Berbick, or Tubbs! Sure Page did KO Tills, but come on’ Ko’d 11 times.

Had Page beaten Berbick….had Page beaten Witherpsoon….perhaps the fan interest and the M-O-N-E-Y would be there to fight Holmes. But then again if a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump their rear while hopping. Page losing to Bey in 1984 was the nail in the coffin. He wasn’t that good. In fact Holmes fought the winner of Page vs Bey next! After Tubbs and Douglas beat Page, he was done.

There is no need to hindsight here. If you were a fan of boxing in the 1980’s you knew the deal. The deal was Page was a fat fighter who lost his biggest matches, and looked shaky in some others. Such a fighter does not demand a fight vs Holmes! Just because a certain wired haired promoter who had fallen out of favor with Holmes wanted to make some money by matching him vs Page doesn’t mean much. Don King always wants to match his guys-- good, average or poor vs other champions. It is his MO and it has not changed for over 30 years. King has an “ in “ with the WBC, and its president Jose Sulliaman who became infamous for ranking a deceased fighter. The WBC of course was Holmes title at the time until 1984. For the WBC to say Page must fight Holmes was a flat out joke. Holmes abandoned the WBC for these reasons and the M-O-N-E-Y. Holmes could have fought Page in for 1.5 Million, but chose Un-defeated Marvis Frazier, who earned some bones by beating the un-defeated USA Olympian James Broad, and Joe Bugner for $3.0 million, or $1.5 MILLION MORE. So Holmes took the money and switched alphabet titles from the WBC to the IBF.


Other rebutts to quesiton 2, 3, and 4 to follow....

 

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Rebuttal: One win does not define a career. Yes—Page beat Coeztee, but he also lost his key matches to Berbick, Witherpsoon, Bey, Tubbs, and Douglas, then looked fat and shaky vs Tills in a fight where he was dropped, and failed to finish me other fringe contender / journeyman types. Oh, yeah, he beat Snipes too. Boxing is full of talanted under acheivers.

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Rebuttal: Are we using what Don King says as the gospel truth here? Surely, you jest. Dong King a great used car salesman. His interest is purely his own. King manipulates the ratings, and robs ignorant fighters blind. Holmes was had enough street smarts. Too much for king to manupulate. Just because Don King says something with charm does not mean he's right. King is famous for saying I’ll get you 1.2 million to fight so and so, then calls you back mid way though training camp to say, sorry I can only give you 800k “ insert excuses why “, and if you pull out, I’ll have so and so sub in for you. When you deal with Don King, it’s his show. The only thing square in the deal is the ring. You'd have to show me a proff of the million offered by someone else to King and post it here. Sorry, I just can't take King's word. I can understand that Holmes made more money by fighting Frazier. King failed to deliver enough money for Holmes vs Page, so he has a sour grapes story.

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Rebuttal" Once again you do not reply to the quesiton. Was Page more accomplished that Witherpsoon, Spinks or Smith? More tangents from you....

Pages' " fanfare " often ended up with his oppoents hand being raised in victory. Losers are not highly favored to beat the champ until they prove they can beat quality fighters with some regularity. I already spelled out how Page fell down time and time again. He blew too many chances and King did not come up with enough money for him to fight Holmes. Smart fans know this. Holmes fought someome else for more money, and that person was not losing big fights at the time.

Spinks, and Witherpsoon beat better fighters than Page. Period, end of sentance, end of paragraph, close the book. You could aruge Smith was 14-1, I'll counter by saying Smith beat an un-defeated Frank Bruno ( who I think it better than Coeztee ) via KO, then did not lose his foucs like Page did. I think we both agree that Bruno was better thab Cotezee, so Smith was more qualifed to fight Holmes based on than Page was if your basing it off one big win.

Indeed Smith also beat guys like Weaver, Witherpsoon, and Bey. Bey and Spoon' of course also beat Page.

 

Since I went first twice here, I think its only fair that you issue the closing statements first. Then I'll reply after that.

I've saved some of the best stuff for last

 

Good, and you might want to skip the insults. You said Z more times than Holmes and referred to me as a commie. This is a Holmes and Page thread. I think you should mention them more then me. By the way, I am American. The need to resort to mocking tactics is another weakness in debate. Your words should be enough.

 

You're up.... bump.

 

Closing statements.

I’d like to thank JohnThomas for taking time out to discuss a topic in a clean debate of forum. I hope other posters who see things differently might adopt a similar approach as I often pick up pick up a thing or two I did not know.

My main goals in the debate were to awnswer the following questions the debate was structured around:

1. Prove that Holmes not fighting Page hardly registers on the radar screen in boxing history of fights that could have been made. John Thomas himself did not address this question head on. Mission accomplished.

2. Explain to the readers that Holmes opponents ( Berbick, Bey and Withespoon ) defeated Page during the mid 1980’s while Holmes was still the lineal champion. How good was Page? There is no doubt that Page was a contender, but from 1982-1986, his ring record vs annual ring magazine contenders was two wins, and five losses.Page Defeated Coetzee and Snipes. He lost to Berbick, Witherpsoon, Bey, Tubbs, and Douglas.

Furthermore, Page had un-timely losses. His loss to Berbick on the undercard of Holmes vs Cooney in 1982, left little demand for Holmes vs Page. Page had a chance to make the public demand the Holmes fight on that night. He blew it and lost badly to Berbick. Page had to work his way back up the ladder again.. He was down vs Tills but won later via TKO.

John Thomas points out that Page defeated Snipes on points in 1983. Yes, but Holmes had already knocked Sinpes out two years earlier. Snipes was the least of the 7 annual ring magazine fighters that Page fought from 1982-1986. In fact, after Page defeated Snipes on points, Snipes dropped his next two fights to lesser men in Evangelista, and Parkey. Prior to fighting Page, Snipes drew to the Scott Frank! It appears the Snipes that Page had beaten regressed as a fighter. Using the Snipes win as an argument for a title shot is rather narrow and dogmatic.

After the Snipes fight, Page suffered a set backs losing to Witherspoon, and Bey in 1984. Holmes had already beaten Witherspooon. Whatever hype Greg Page had was once again lost. In fact, Holmes opted to give Bey a title defense, chiefly on him beating “ Super “ Greg Page in 1984. Page re-surfaced after the Bey loss, and scored his signature win over Coeztee. Alias, Page’s moment of glory lasted but 4 months. After beating Coetzee, Page lost back to back fight Tubbs and Douglas in 1985 and 1986. The nail in the coffin for Page happened in 1986 when he was knocked out by and a 5-5 fighter.


3. Explain what motivated Holmes and why Page vs Holmes was never made. Politics aside, it was the M-O-N-E-Y. Holmes opted to fight an undefeated Frazier over Page when the difference between the two fights was $1,500,000 more. Back in the 1980’s, this was a lot of money. History records that Page failed to string together more than 2 quality wins vs ranked opponents. In fact, his record vs Annual Ring Magazine rated fighters was but 2-5. If Don King had produced enough money in 1983, I am sure Holmes vs Page could have been made. John Thomas himself agrees that Holmes was not afraid of Page. It was the lack of money, a small window of Page being a “ hot commodity “ and untimely losses to fighters that Holmes had already beaten that plagued the Page vs Holmes fight.



4 ) Show that Holmes as an older fighter fought Withepsoon in 1983, Smith in 1984, and Spinks in 1985. Clearly, these were all good fighters. One could argue on a favorable basis that Witherpsoon and Spinks were more accomplished than Page was, and Smith was about even. However Smith seemed to keep his motivation a focus, and for my money beat better fighters than Page did.

At this point I choose to close the thread by agreeing with some of what Mr. JohnThomas has said in previous posts. These posts can be viewed in the archives of the classic forum, and I will link them for those who care to read them.


“ Motivation and Dedication”: Page was indeed a lazy bum but on his best night he's a handful for anyone. He also had a more powerful right hand than Holmes which certainly gives him one better aspect in the game and something that can certainly hurt Holmes. It's harder and faster than the Snipes right hand that had Holmes on ***** street, so it's pretty silly to say Page had nothing to hurt Holmes. As far as beating the **** out of him, Witherspoon and Snipes sure had their moments not to mention others later. This was Holmes on the downside. It wasn't heart Page lacked, it was motivation and dedication. His heart is on display against Coetzee, easily mopping up punches that had the likes of Snipes and Spinks flat. Even later vs Ruddock he took many serious missiles before succumbing. By John Thomas.

Link:
[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7137&page=2&highlight=Page+Holmes[/url]

>>>I agree with this.

“Who was the 3rd best heavyweight in the 1980’s?” Hmmm, funny you don't even mention the two biggest rivals to Weaver in that lot of 5, Thomas and Witherspoon. These are the two guys that comfortably run him closest.

When talking 80's we must envelope the complete 10 years to get the most worthy of contenders. Truth be told all 3 best have their flaws. Pink did nothing of note in the second half of the decade but wasn't defeated a single time in the first half. Witherspoon has a very solid run from 82 all the way to thru to the 90's. Lets face it, the man lost just 3 fights for the entire decade, one a probable fix type event and another to the great Holmes as a mere up and comer. The third was to the superb performing Thomas. His consistency over the entire decade must put him past Thomas. Weaver too had a disappointing second half with 4 losses. His best efforts were wins over Tate, Coetzee and Tillis as well as a great fight vs Dokes in the rematch. And a wild KO over the weak chinned Williams. Witherspoon beat Tillis, Page, Smith, Tubbs and Bruno. Weaver may have a slight edge in wins but loses out badly in the loss department. Thomas beat Tillis, Witherspoon and Weaver and had a fine draw vs Coetzee. He had 3 second half losses but two were against Tyson and Holy and the other a resurgent Berbick. I think he might even edge Weaver.

Tho subject to change, i gotta go Witherspoon, then Thomas then Weaver. My list is

1. Tyson
2. Holmes
3. Witherspoon
4. Thomas
5. Weaver
6. Berbick

By John Thomas


Link: [url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27419&highlight=Page+Holmes[/url]

>>> The readers should take note that John Thomas doesn’t even rank Page in his top 6 in the 1980’s!

I want to point out that Holmes fought 5 of John Thomas top 6 fighters of the 80’s. To say that Holmes did not meet fight the best out there for the most part in the 1980’s is a false statement. No—Holmes did not fight everyone. Few fighters can. No one ever claimed he did. Like Muhamed Ali, and Joe Louis, Holmes squeezed in an easy title defense or two along the way.

In the simplest of words, Page was not an elite level fighter. He lacked the motivation and dedication that a contender should have; lost to the fighters Holmes had already or would beat while champion, and was had two losses ( 1-4 ) sandwiched between his career win over Coeztee. I suppose for a brief moment in time Holmes vs Page could have been made, but Larry did see enough M-O-N-E-Y, and took a bigger pay day in the vs Frazier. Just about ever other prize fighter would have done the same thing.