Michael Carbajal vs Ricardo Lopez At 108 Pounds

Surprised to see so few picking Carbajal. I hearken back to that era when Carbajal was in his prime years and willing to fight anyone, and Lopez stayed at 105 rather than move up a mere 3 pounds. Carbajal was fast and strong, tough and skilled. Yes, Lopez had good speed, power, footwork, skill, but I also recall him struggling with Rosendo Alvarez at 105, so I don't think he's a lock to beat a motivated Carbajal at 108 by any means. Would have been a heck of a fight, though.

 

Whilst there is nothing wrong with picking Lopez by decision, reading this thread I was about to type out a very similar post to yours.

 

Carbajal was very talented. However, unlike Lopez, he was also a 'Groomed-for-TV' sports star; a storied amateur and Olympic Silver Medalist who broke divisional records in terms of revenue and purses, during '93-94. I doubt Cabajal gave Lopez much of a thought while he was making relatively huge money from the Gonzalez trilogy.

Bear in mind also that, up until just before the rubber match with Gonzalez, Carbajal was under Arum, while Lopez was under King.

His interest in a Lopez bout seemed to stir when his second World Title reign came to an end, having lost to Pastrana in 1997. (It was technically his third 'title', if you include his picking up a WBO strap and making 0 defenses in between). There were reportedly talks between the relevant parties around this time, but for whatever reason the fight didn't materialize. It is a shame it didn't happen but no one really knows why it didn't. Failing to agree terms - primarily regarding the money - remains the common reason for these fights not coming off.

Regarding the Rosendo Alvarez bouts - Lopez was past peak and was perhaps even beyond his prime by the time he and Alvarez fought. At the same time, Alvarez was in his prime, an undefeated roughhouser in possession of the WBA strap (?) and no joke, either.

And, one of the reasons I really do doubt Lopez was concerned about a few pounds in extra weight is that Alvarez failed to make weight for their rematch, and was not forced to cut it. Instead, the Nevada Commission set a new limit of 115lbs against which the fighters would be weighed the following day (same day of the fight). Lopez was fine with this arrangement and took the 'W' in what was viewed as a candidate for Fight of the Year.

This bout was the last either of them would have in the Minimumweight division, after which Lopez won a strap at Light Flyweight to more or less complete his career.

It might also be worth noting that Sorjaturong - a challenger to Lopez's Minimumweight Title in '93 - would two years later meet Gonzalez, who had not long since taken the W in his rubber match with Carbajal.

Sorjaturong would overcome a strong Gonzalez offensive and quite starkly step up the gears to beat the brakes of Gonzalez, TKO'ing him mid-fight and winning the unified Light Flyweight Championship.

Lopez had dispatched Sorjaturong inside of two rounds. Just a tidbit - and maybe some narrow line of perspective? (Or not, as the case maybe).

 

Carbajal was never fast imo. He threw good combinations earlier in his career before becoming too enamoured with his power, but he was a pretty slow and not very reflexive fighter overall, especially his feet.

That Sorjaturong loss for Chiquita has to be one of the worst losses from any borderline great/great fighter around Flyweight. Sorjaturong was a nondescript, limited fighter reliant on big power in his right...not bad as a challenger you would expect a good champ to defeat, but when he went on to have a long run as champ it was one of the indicators alongside the average quality of other champions that the long run (late '50s to early '90s) of Flyweight being deep was finished.

Carbajal and Chiquita were slightly overestimated at the time because of their visibility as good fighters to the American market in a division that was usually facing elsewhere. Lopez is open to his own criticism related to the level of opposition he usually faced, but I think he was too calm and precise a boxer-puncher to lose to either, unless they were able to reveal a previously hidden durability issue, but the Alvarez fights make me lean towards that not existing in large enough fashion. They would have probably lost stepping up against Arbachakov or Too Sharp as well.

 

Excellent post as always, MM.

My agreement with Adam's post was limited to his surprise at Lopez being the consensus pick, rather than about Lopez's willingness to take on challenges.

Having researched the original 8 weight divisions in depth during covid lockdown to support my top 20 rankings, I'm currently part way through (up to SBW, starting at Min and working my way up) the 9 "inbetweeners".

I have Lopez #1 at Min and Carbajal #3 at L.Fly, based strictly on resume at those weights.

I was surprised at how thin Lopez's resume was though, relatively speaking, I.e. for the divisional GOAT with his sheer numbers.

I was also struck by how weak Min is, from an historical perspective, relative to the comparatively very strong L.Fly.

Even then, based on the film I've watched, if my lists were based on H2H, I'd have Calderon ahead of Lopez at Min. I may even possiby guess a green Roman Gonzalez ahead of him too.

Lopez was definitely more skilled, technically sound and versatile than Carbajal. As I said, there is nothing wrong with picking Lopez, imo.

Carbajal was more explosive with crazy, natural physical gifts.

When I saw the thread title I anticipated a roughly even split for both, so was about to comment as to my surprise at the consensus pick for Ricardo thus far, when I read what was then the final post in the thread, which was Adam's, who expressed that very same view.

 

I've been out of the loop for a long time, but back in the '00s online message board days, I'd say Lopez was usually notably more highly regarded than Carbajal or Gonzalez. In fact, he might have been the most highly rated fighter of the '80s to '00s below bantam. A not insignificant amount of people seemed to consider him a perfect unbeatable boxer-puncher. Granted, a good amount of that was from fans that only followed those weights very casually and weren't able to assess/didn't really care about the low level of opposition he often faced compared to many other historically notable small men, they just saw a talented, fundamentally great boxer-puncher smashing folk up in title defences on the rare occasion they did see him. That seemed to balance out to something more realistic by the end of the '00s/early '10s, but it wasn't uncommon at one point to see him being picked to dominate anyone he was mentioned alongside.

I've no idea how the last 8/10 years impacted reputations, but this thread seems fairly typical of what I would have expected in one from a decade ago.

imo, Minimum/Straw and Light-Fly were superfluous as new weightclasses. The latter managed to transcend that for a good while because of the depth of talent around (though it still impacted the champions that didn't move up to Fly) but Minimum never really did. Lopez really should have fought at light-fly where he could have picked up high profile wins that would have given him a sturdier long-term legacy. Along with Alvarez, he's the only Strawweight that I watched who I think would be an intriguing matchup for the very good to great 108-112 fighters. Never rated Calderon as more than a decently skilled yet physically feeble spoiler, though maybe someone else has emerged over the last decade?

 

Hey Greg, thanks.

Yes, I attempted to address Mr Pollack's surprise and your echoing of the same (assuming that was the core share in viewpoint), as well as any other supporting incidentals for completeness.

I might have been initially surprised myself had I not both observed it being discussed and been involved in discussions several times over the years and found there to be similar consensus in favor of Lopez.

Regarding placements in the All-Time Rankings, I'd agree with your #1 Lopez shout without hesitation, and assume your #2 as Calderon?

In terms of the lack of depth however, the Minimumweight division hadn't even been inaugurated when Lopez turned pro. Indeed the 'Lopez Era' might be considered the very first of the division's eras - No one prior had really established themselves. So, Lopez, to my mind, is a divisional founder, who made a lasting impression to become the first historical point of reference there.

All of 'the other nine' are going to have less historical depth than the initial eight divisions and Minimumwieight suffers more so perhaps due to what I suspect might be a Lower than average participation level.

Will you be publishing your ratings at any point? I'd be very interested to see them.

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Where you and I will perhaps need to agree to disagree is on Calderon having the H2H measure of Lopez. A pure boxer or a defensive counterpuncher with little power against Lopez is more than likely getting systematically broken down, in my opinion.

And I wouldn't back anyone 'green' against Lopez, either - even if the green fighter is Roman Gonzalez.

 

Yes, Calderon is my #2. Way short of Lopez, even though I'd favour him h2h.

I consider Lopez a boxer puncher, with a pure boxer the calibre of Calderon being a bad style match up. Calderon would likely find a pure swarmer of similar calibre a tougher style match up, imo. I wouldn't bet my house on it though.

Yes, I intend to post my top 10, with some high-level supporting rationale, in each of the 9 inbetween divisions. I'll wait until I've finished/almost finished and then post a new weight division each week or so, beginning with Min and working my way up.

 

Fair enough, Greg.

I look forward to reading your compiled rankings in due course.

 

The Sorjaturong that Lopez and Gonzalez fought were different though, Saman worked and trained very hard for that fight with Gonzalez,and was literally hanging on hopes that he would get a stoppage as his team had to beg the referee to allow him to fight for just 1 more round.

Meanwhile the Saman that fought Lopez was an unknown,very green with just 16 fights with most of his wins being matches vs debut fighters as well.

 

Carbajal was much better fighter than given credit for. Carbajal in his prime could take Lopez unless he was cut badly which happened quite often.

 

His best chance is to get inside and quickly smash the air out of Lopez,and I agree that Carbajal was better than he was given credit for.


Before he became a one paced power puncher,he had a good jab and fires combinations like bullets, quick and hurtful,if Carbajal could keep up his combos with Lopez's footwork he might shut him down eventually imo.

 

There is a difference between appearing/looking like you could beat abc and actually doing it. Lopez looked like he could beat the best at 108 but he didn’t do it, certainly not until those big name guys were gone. Telling. Over and over I’ve seen guys looking like 1 million bucks when they are against the right opposition at the right time.

More credit to those who actually DO get in the ring and prove it against the best of their era. That is why I give huge credit to Naoya Inoue, Nonito Donaire, and those like them.

 

Inoue is doing some good work at 118 and 122 currently, but the best little men of his era were Estrada and Gonzalez - and He did not get in the ring with them.

 

Anyone who starts at 108 and goes up and faces an all time great Nonito Donaire at 118 has serious balls.

I don’t think the timing was right re Gonzalez and Estrada. Around the time that Inoue was moving up Gonzalez lost twice. Then he came back and had some momentum but lost to Estrada at 115. By then Inoue was 118 en route to 122. I don’t ever recall any discussion or push for Inoue to face those guys.