Mickey Walker vs Dick Tiger @ 160 lbs,winner

I think that comparing Griffith to Walker in terms of adaption is a little further than I would be prepared to go...but perhaps that's not what you meant.

When I spoke of physical disadvantages i'm not talking about Tiger's height and reach though, I'm talking about Walker. Walker had better footwork than he's been given credit for, as we've agreed, but that doesn't make him Sugar Ray. I don't think Walker is caught repeatedly in extended clinches with Hudkins exlusively because he choses to any more than I he ended up being controlled in clinches by Greb because he wanted to. He's just not that fast going backwards or hitting that hard off the backfoot. There's a reason that footage of Walker boxing in that manner is rare, is that this was not his strongest style. Walker new where his strengths lay, and his weaknesses. Tiger comes in hard behind punches. I don't think that it is in Walker's stylings to dance off or proven to be in his physical capabilities.

And yet he is far and away the more vulnerable of the two.

 

Firstly, Tiger's career was at that time unfinished. Even now an argument is raging as to the ATG placement of fighters like Vitali, Manny and Mayweather. Fighters are notoriously difficult to place when active.

Secondly, Muhammad Ali, fighting at the same time, was not classified as being alongside the ATG's. That would come later.


Arthur Mencante: "I wouldn't classify him with Monzon and Hagler. Below them."

Tommy Kenville: "I would put him in the top 10."

Ron Lipton: "I saw Marvin fight Bennie Briscoe and he ran from Bennie. Marvin awas a technician and he was a good leftie but Dick would hint him down and blast him out. Tiger had the most formidable style, I don't care about Stanley Ketchel and all the legendary middleweights, no-one at 160lbs couls survive Dick Tiger in a head on fight. If you came to war with him, his strength, endurance, durability, left hook to the head or body would always take away a man's desire to be there."

Larry Merchant: "In the modern era, only the absolute elite in the MW division would rank above Tiger."

Reg Guttridge: "He was the best African fighter. I thin he would have given Hagler hell - that's an even money fight."


Whatever his reputation in 1960, his reputation now is as one of the greatest MW's who ever breathed.

Why? Tiger handled all of the strongest men he fought. He handled the bull-strong Fulmer like he was a baby, throwing him to the ground from a clinch, lifting him into the air as though he were weightless. Giardello, Carter, Hank, Fernandez, all these strong MW's were handled with ease by a primed Dick Tiger, he moved these men about the ring and dominated them with strength.

Walker fought heavweights. He was also man-handled by a weight-drained MW in Harry Greb.

Neither footage nor reads support the position that Walker was stronger than Tiger at 160, in fact i'd say it's a baseless claim.

 

The quote you are responding to was purely about the relative strengths of the two fighters, that is what that discussion was about. It wasn't meant as a description of the series, we were talking about how strong the fighters were.

If you'd walked into The Ring offices and told them that Charley Burley would be on most top 10 MW lists in 2010 they would have called security. As you point out, the same thing was true for Charles, imagine trying to explain to Fleischer tha he would be above Fitzsimmons on myost lists by now. I don't care what most people thought when he was fighting (for the purposes of this discussion). Why would i?

 

You seem to be saying that on the one hand, you "haven't said that Mickey Walker was stronger than Tiger" but on the other "please tellme common sense wise why Walker could not cope with teh strong Dick Tiger when he coped with" heavyweights.

Here is my common sense answer: at 160lbs, Walker seems to have been manhandled at points by Harry Greb. Greb was noted as being a strong HW but not mostrously so. Tiger, on the other hand, had the appearance of being stronger than every strong MW he met in his prime, handling some of these strong fighters like rag-dolls.

Criteria for what? For winning the fight? I haven't said that, if you have read the back and forth between myself and Doud, you know that the main criteria according to us for deciding this was where the fight would be fought.

 

Okie dokie.

 

Yes, but the key words are in the trenches. Nobody is suggesting that Tiger strikes a muscle pose and Walker falls over. The debate was never about who was stronger - I think you're the only poster disputing it, if you are disputing it - but rather whether or not Walker could stay out of the pocket where he's very likely to lose.

I think it's silly to say that Walker could "chose" to be strong enough to out-muscle Tiger, and I don't think that film or written evidence supports this.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72JmkThYXZ8[/ame]

Here, Walker is "chosing" to cede ground to Hudkins and box, but is he also "chosing" to be wrestled, pushed and driven around the ring from around 2/40? I suspect that he isn't, rather i'd say that he's struggling to push Hudkins all the way off him, and is forced to give ground.

I don't think Walker is as strong a MW as Tiger.

But he did manhandle him.

"Greb broke up [Walker's] attack by forcing him onto the ropes, holding him with his left hand...Greb pushed walker onto the ropes and clubbed him...Harry wrestled Mickey around...Greb, who was taking matters fairly lightly, laughed as Mickey tried to free his arms in a clinch..."

From the Gazette Times. There is more, but you get the point.

Do you think that Walker is "chosing" Greb push him to the ropes, pin his arms, was "chosing" to let himself be laughed at whilst Greb held him in place, bulled him to the ropes, pushed him around?

Greb was stronger than Walker and it made life difficult for him. Tiger, I am sure, is stronger than Greb. Nobody out-muscled him anywhere near his prime, and he fought some very strong fighters.

Do you think that Greb is stronger than Bearcat Wright, Uzcudun, Risk, etc.?

 

This is the crux of the matter.

That's an interesting video, did you slow this film down yourself?