Mickey Walker vs Holman Williams

Burt, I don't sell Walker, or for that matter, Harry Greb short...Greb in top five ATG. We will never ever see the likes of these two ever again...But with that said, your main point is always stated...the one you make over and over and over again is that both Greb and Walker are best because they fought bigger men. That point does carry validity to a certain degree...but do you think that is the final absolute determinant in picking who is best at a particular weight? I'm not saying Robinson is a better light heavyweight or heavyweight.Could Robinson go rounds with Schmeling nope...But he would problably kick his ass at 147 or 160...How did small Lew Tendler go the distance with Walker, just like 240 lb something Bearcat did? What other points can you hang your hat on Burt?

 

dp, I just saw Johann Santana pitch a no-hitter for the Mets, so let me get my bearings...First off I thought the thread was about Mickey Walker against holman Williams ? Was it not ?
How did "small " Lew Tendler go the distance with Mickey Walker, you ask ? Hell Lew Tendler and Walker both were welterweights at that time
in 1924, so what is your point ? How the hell did little Marty Servo almost beat Ray Robinson twice, and "little" Lew Tendler would be a prohibitive favorite over Marty Servo were they to have fought...So tell me what is your point in this debate ? Respectfully you are not making sense on your questions dp...
Now tell me how do YOU determine who was a greater fighter Ray Robinson or a Harry Greb ? If both had amazing careers at their respective weights and era, how would YOU determine the relative merits between
two great fighters of different era's ? Shouldn't the fact that a Harry Greb
could have 300 bouts against many, many HOF fighters who outweighed him by 15-30 pounds and whip these men often ,regardless of size, style or color factor in choosing Greb over a Ray Robinson who DID avoid top fighters who were heavier than he was in HIS great career ? How else can we determine who was better between these two titans of boxing other than their accomplishments as fighters from different era's ? If you can
tell me a better method or reason to choose one over the other, I'm all ears...Cheers...

 

Well since I haven't seen Robinson/Servo or Robinson/Levine I can't really comment. I do know that different accounts say Robinson beat Servo, and it really wasn't in doubt. Levine? I know Robinson stopped in the tenth round. Tell me about how Greb beat George Chip or how Soldier Bartfield had this peculiar habit of knocking Greb down?...

Seriously though, as far as judging fighters from eras it is difficult in pinpointing everything. Your assessment of fighters being able to beat bigger fighters than they are does carry considerable weight in making an assessment about the merits of those fighters. But when considering great fighters that is far of the only consideration. IMO...quality of competition is the first and foremost consideration, then consideration of how those fighters did against bigger fighters, then a consideration of how styles may play into a certain match-up...but here is where the water starts to get murky...But back to the debate of whether a fighter is considered greater by being able to beat or at least fight bigger men...that doesn't even begin to tell the whole story. The old boxing adage 'a good big 'un always beats a good little 'un' has been proven time and time again...but sometimes there are rare talents who thrive fighting bigger men, and are adapted physically or stylistically to do it well. Greb, Walker, Dillon,Toney, Harada..etc. Smaller fighters are generally considered better fighters, they just operate on a faster level...reactions, reflexes, recognition of spacing...it's when physics enters the equation that the bigger men start to gain on the little guys. So while it is an important judgement, I do not consider it to be the absolute bottom line when comparisons are made. Hence, Pacquiao would be considered over Pep, Toney would be considered over Hagler, delaHoya would be considered over Benny Leonard. There are definitely other factors to consider how fighters perform AT a certain weight, not just if they are superior in fighting at a heavier weight...Given that, let's take Greb as an example fighting and succeeding at heavyweight, not having seen Greb, I would surmise that toughness played a big part, but I think style, guile and namely SPEED played an even larger role...with that said, speed at a certain weight would play a significant part in how a fight plays out. Certain rare fighters would have successfully fought bigger men might just actually have more trouble fighting smaller, but faster fighters themselves.

So again, while being able to fight bigger men is an important factor, it is not a final determinant...not by any stretch! Harry Greb himself proves that point! So in a comparision between Greb and Robinson, I feel Robinson's speed and power at middleweight gives Greb plenty of problems at the very least of any objective assessment. Greb should be considered the greater historic middleweight, but the Robinson who beat LaMotta in '51 in a head to head would be able to beat Greb... Back to you Burt.

 

There are no FINAL determinates in comparing two great fighters from different era's, as you state...When I saw Ray Robinson against several WWs in his prime, and later on stop Randy Turpin in 1951 at the Polo Grounds in NY, I couldn't envision anyone beating him weight for weight...
But my dad who saw Greb batter the 15 pound heavier Gene Tunney in 1922, and saw Ray Robinson too [of course he took me to Robby's fights]
regarded Greb to have beaten the frailer Robinson at MW ...And so did
Nat Fleischer, Whitey Bimstein and others who rated Greb higher at middleweight than Robinson...Was Harry Greb the most amazing fighter ever ? I think so and the record bears me out. Was any fighter better to behold in the ring than Ray Robinson ? I think not...
But I use this criteria until a better one comes along...
I am positive that the prime Harry Greb whips everyone of Ray Robinson's opponents...
But I am also certain that Ray Robinson could not beat the likes of Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky,
Maxie Rosenbloom, Billy Miske, Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan [4 times]
and Willie Meehan, all who would have been avoided by Ray Robinson...
Doesn't my criteria hold up ? For Harry Greb to meet and beat these 15
to 30 pounds heavier men often in a 300 fight career, fighting almost weekly have merit to my claim that Greb was most likely the best fighter who ever lived, and more amazing than Robinson, based on their respective career resume ? And the last part of his career fighting with ONE EYE !
Cheers dp...

 

I'm not saying Robinson is a better light heavyweight or heavyweight than Greb...Did you even acknowledge my post??? I'm say that at middleweight Robinson would have posed more problems for a fighter that was used to being the faster man in the ring. I understand your criteria, and I use that same criteria myself (as I stated!) to a point... but that is not by any means a final determining factor. Greb also fought in a different era, he did take on all comers, even the ones everybody else avoided! Robinson did pick and choose, maybe Greb would have done the same in Robinson's era, or maybe he still would have tangled with light heavyweights and heavies...but he would certainly had more decisions and opportunities to make a better living in the prizefighting business...and it would be smart business to try and maximize that potential. Greb's world was alot different than Robinson's with less opportunity...Robinson made business decisions that maximized his standing financially. Boxing is a business...and people who do not realize that are living in a comic book world.
I respect the opinion of Fleischer and Bimstein (though Fleischer actually picks Ketchel over Greb...and Edgren picks Fitz as tops! But that may be a topic for another time. But it goes to show there are alot of differing opinions out there is the point)but I'll add that Arcel really respected Robinson...and the general consensus says Robinson. Cheers Burt.
Addendum: To Vic..sorry for the thread highjack.

 

dp, your a worthy adversary indeed ...
You say maybe Greb were he to have fought in Robinson's era would have
possibly avoided the bigger LHs and HWs...I don't know and you don't know but could have, should have, might have is conjecture pure and simple ...The fact of the matter is GREB DID challenge these guys time and again with amazing success, traveling from town to town sans A/C, and was completely fearless as he most have known that he had certain boxing traits as a fighter to butress his amazing bravery in the ring...It was in his genes then and he would most likely tackle anyone in Robinson's era
for the challenge also, just like a mountain climber tackles a Mt. Everest,
"cause it's there"...Good show...
completely fearless

 

Fearless..Indeed! Cheers Burt.