Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

I was simply playing along. I wouldn't have brought up the gloves issue in the first place if he had perfect hands. The main point was that even if he had healthy hands, the circumstances he fought under would lead to him not hitting as hard as he possibly could've. With larger gloves and a shorter match, that wouldn't have been the case and- or certainly much less of one, and he'd have hit harder. :good

 

I think you're really underestimating the gap in skill. What have you seen Fitz do better than Ray on film?

 

Maybe I'm more baked then I think I am but this last sentence doesn't seem to make any sense :huh

 

The newspapers from Robinsons day would be fascinating but they would not tell you much that you did not already know.

The newspapers from Fitzsimmons day would open up a hole new world to you:

Details of his style that you had never thought of before.

Fighters listed on boxrec as 1-1-1 suddenly become fringe contenders.

 

First of all I meant the reporters of Fitzsimmons day being introduced to Robinson.

I know not to take much note of boxrec but I see what you mean. How well-rounded or skilled these 'fringe contenders' where is anyone's guess as we've never seen them have we?

 

Read Fitzsimmons book that was posted on here a little while ago.

Your description makes Dunkhorst sound like every single modern Super heavyweight today. He wasnt a world champion but he was a decent contender. Certainly a difference between that and a bum.

 

Punch. He knocks out a 184 pounder on film.

Take a punch. He takes the punch of a 184 pounder on film.

Stamina. He outlasts a 184 pounder on film and was clearly coming on.

Strength. He pushes around a 184 pounder on film.

Body work. Ability to handle himself inside.

Unfortunately, there is not much film of Fitz, and only the Corbett fight before he was literally middle-aged.

 

Just to be fair, I want to mention some area in which Robinson has it all over Fitz:

HAIR

Robinson's worst hair day still leaves him quite a bit ahead of Fitz.

 

You will never see them.

They were fringe contenders over a huge talent pool, in an era when much was expected from a fighter, and little reward was given unless they made it big time.

I would add that training regimes in this era were brutal compared to those exercised today.

So to answer your questin, I don't know how good they were but I might well preffer to be thrown in aginst the current lot.

 

I can't see how you can say Fitz takes a better punch because he got hit by a 184 pounder when Ray was never stopped by punches in over 200 fights. And weren't you just bringing up how Fitz was bigger than Ray a second ago anyway?

You can't really say stamina either as Ray consistently showed the ability to last the distance in gruelling fights, all the while staying busy and competitive even in losses.

And body work? really? I don't see that for a second.

What about speed, combination punching, fighting on the outside, footwork, etc.?

 

Size matters. Ray was never hit by anyone remotely close to Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Maher, Dunkhurst, Jeffries, etc in size, except Maxim, and Maxim was known as a banjo puncher, and still Robinson was stopped in that fight. The fact that he could stand up to generally ordinary punching middleweights does not exactly prove he stands up to the men Fitz stood up against. I consider Fitz's chin the more proven. Sharkey and Maher were considered great punchers in their day.

Another thing about Robinson--somehow he never got into the ring against most of the top punchers of his day--Burley, Zale, Cerdan, Lausse, Carter, Fernandez, etc--He fought the feather fisted Maxim but not Moore.

I give Fitz the edge on stamina. He outlasted the much bigger Corbett, a man who went 61 rounds with Peter Jackson, and at 40 he went 20 rounds to win the lightheavy title from George Gardner.

"And body work? Really? I don't see that for a second?"

Well, the only film we have shows him ko'ing Corbett with a body punch. I see it and more than for a second.

 

You just gave me what you think Robinson does better. Okay, I largely agree. But you never asked me that. You asked me what Fitz did better.

 

Interesting statement.

You really need to read Fitz' boxing manual, as it actually explains his guard. The low guard really is only when fighters are at a distance. When Fitz gets in close he uses body rolls, high guard, head movement, ducking etc. This is hardly making things up, although it is obviously impossible to see on film due to film quality and lack of proper footage.

If Fitz fought Jeffries under modern rules, he would ahve won by tko, so fitz adapting to modern rules, might not be as hard a transition as one owuld think.

 

The Maxim stoppage had nothing to do with punching. Carter and Fernandez fights would've come at the tail end of Robinson's career, can't really fault him for not meeting them. Can't comment on why the Zale or Cerdan fights didn't happen. The risk vs. reward for a Lausse or Burley fight wasn't very favorable to Ray so I don't think you can fault him entirely for not fighting every single guy out there at 160 during his career. As it stands Ray did manage to fight and beat Fullmer, Graziano, and LaMotta, all three larger, hard hitting guys.

You're putting too much stock in Fitz taking on heavys in regards to his chin; how and where did the punches he took land? how much damage did he take? Corbett (big, hard hitting heavy there) had Fitz badly hurt and although there's no shame in a smaller man getting dropped by a heavy let's not get carried away with Fitz's durabilty. I've never seen Fitz take the kind of punishment Ray has shown he can withstand. Yeah Fitz took on heavys but he's also been knocked out by some of those heavys; Ray's never been stopped due to punches period.

And saying Fitz's body punching is superior to Ray's simply because of the Corbett fight is unfair. Ray's punching to the body was much more varied and consistent (although there isn't much Fitz footage out). Check out Ray working the body at 0:48, 2:56, or at 3:12 :

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1. Fullmer, LaMotta, and Graziano were not "large men". They were middleweights. And Fullmer and LaMotta were NOT particularly hard punchers for their weight, off the testimony of opponents and off their records. Graziano might have been, but he was more of a super-welterweight than a big middle, and plenty crude.

2. These films show that Robinson is obviously a brilliant fighter. Perhaps, though, there is a certain misleading factor. Have you ever seen the old movies from the 1940's or so in which an iguana or a baby crocodile appears on screen to be a dinosaur. Without perspective, or with a distorted perspective, they really look gigantic. I think something of the same sort happens with these films. A Robinson, or a Carlos Ortiz, or an Eder Jofre, looks just as big on the screen as Fitz or Corbett. Our mind does not quite process that if you put all these men in the ring together, there would be an immense difference between the heavyweight Corbett and the middleweight Robinson. Corbett would be much taller, broader, and heavier. He weighed 184 pounds. Both Fitz and Robinson, and all their contemporaries such as Nat Fleischer, would have not hesitated to consider Corbett a heavyweight. Put baldly, Corbett was probably about 3 inches taller and about 30 pounds heavier than Robinson. This matters a great deal.

3. Obviously if you have only one prime film of Fitz, and dozens of Robinson, you have a fairly easy time showing more variety in Robinson's punching, and he probably had more variety--I concede that. However, no way Robinson stops Corbett with a body punch. Fitz is in another class as a puncher and a body puncher.

4. I am going to post excerpts from A J Liebling's THE SWEET SCIENCE as he explains all this better than I ever could.